TrueMyth

Hello all!

I stated in another thread:

and have been challenged to present verses which support this claim. Here are a few I could come up with on the spot regarding intelligent thought and the search for truth:

Jeremiah 5:1 "If you can find one person who deals honestly and speaks truth, I will spare this city" (The implication is that these are criteria for righteousness, and the absence of them is evidence of wickedness)

Jeremiah 5:3 "Oh LORD, do not your eyes look for truth?"

Proverbs 23:23 "Buy the truth and do not sell it; get wisdom, discipline, and understanding" (For that matter, there is a plethora of verses in Proverbs which emphasize the importance of truth, wisdom, and understanding, and their worth above all things)

John 8:32 "Then you will know the truth, and the turth will set you free."

1 Peter 3:15 "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect"

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

1 Thess. 5:21 "Test everything. Hold on to the good."

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (KJV)" (Note that evidence plays a crucial part even in the definition of faith)

These are just a smattering of possible verses. A search of the word "Truth" turns up 228 results. "Wisdom" turns up 215, and "Understanding" turns up 114. In ancient times, these words were used almost interchangeably, and Wisdom and Understanding in particular denoted discernment and weighing of options, choosing some and rejecting others. Add to this the fact that Paul himself was a logician and all his epistles are fraught with logical arguments (ie, "For this reason," "Therefore," "What shall we say then?", etc.). Despite how it has been used in history (and I question whether or not it has been used as widely in this manner as one might think), the Bible is inescapably in favor of logical thought, faith and reason in conjunction, and free inquiry.

Any thoughts?

(All verses are NIV, unless otherwise noted)

Toto

Did you intend to start this in GRD instead of BCH?

Well, so far no support for "freedom of expression" that I can see, or "basic human rights" such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc.

There is some respect for "wisdom" but you will find a lot of verses that reject "the wisdom of this world." See this BCH thread: Christianity doesn't like Intellectuals?

And of course, the search for truth is only the search for Truth as Christians can accept it. For example: The test of what Paul said was not empirical evidence or logical persuasion, but whether it accorded with a reading of the Scriptures.

lpetrich

Seems to me that TrueMyth is doing a lot of proof-texting, because there is plenty of anti-intellectualism in the Bible, like what Toto had mentioned in the thread he linked to:Richard Carrier also noted a lot of anti-intellectualism in his review "Was Christianity Too Improbable to be False?", which I mention in a thread here.

I've seen proof-texting and imaginative interpretation used to support:

Elected leaders
Separation of church and state
Separation of government powers
Freedom of speech
Feminism
Various results of modern science, with the notable exception of evolution

This makes me wonder when someone will claim to have deduced biological evolution from the Bible; I myself have thought of such an argument.

Stumpjumper

I pretty much agree. I'm not a big fan of proof texting but I have read many a good article about faith and reason in addition to watching a few PBS shows on the topic. All in all though any form of acceptance of the Bible as Divine Revelation will make you weigh its claims with some degree of acceptance even if what it states one does not completely comprehend. The one thing that always bothers me with atheistic arguments though is statements such as "atheists use science and reason to form their judgements." As if most theists do not use reason or science to form their positions. Here is JP II's fides et ratio. Its a good read even if someone mistakenly believes theists abandon reason

seebs

I have seen good support for it offered by Glenn Morton, a geologist and former YEC. His argument revolves around God saying "let the Earth bring forth plants".

FWIW, I do not believe the anti-intellectualism in the Bible to be really anti-intellectualism. When philosophers attacked logical positivism as fundamentally unsound, they were not attacking logic, but protecting it from a kind of abuse much akin to idolatry.

The Bible's elaborate complaints about worldly "wisdom" are I think better applied to the "wisdom" of claims such as "we all know you've gotta look out for yourself" or "I can prove all true claims", rather than to the question of whether, in general, reasoning is a productive approach.

Toto

I suspect that some of Paul's complaints about worldly wisdom are a gnostic-type rejection of the physical world in favor of a higher spiritual world.

But we're still looking for freedom of expression, etc.

DBT

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (KJV)" (Note that evidence plays a crucial part even in the definition of faith)


Or to put it another way... Faith is purely a case of wish fulfilment with desire as the given justification.

TrueMyth

Thanks for your reply!

Yeah, I did intend to do that, but if you feel it would be better served there, then please feel free to move it!

I'm getting there...

I believe there is much more than simply "some respect". Not only was that a very strong tradition in early Judaic culture, but there are whole books dedicated to that tradition in the Bible. Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job, and Song of Solomon are all examples. This was the undergirding for all writings of the early church fathers.

You referenced the Berean verse, Acts 17:11. Actually, it seems to me that logic played a very big part of this. If you tell me, "God desires you to cut your arms with a knife as a sign of your devotion to Him", I will look in the Scriptures to see whether or not this is viable. This involves reason to a high degree. Example: is circumcision a proof that God wants us to mutilate our bodies for His service? No, because circumcision serves a viable medical good, whereas cutting your arms does not. Notice now I am bringing evidence to the table, and using it to weigh the merits of an argument. Searching the Scriptures to see if what someone tells you about God is true is a highly rational process

Regarding Truth being God's truth only, I will agree with you... to a certain extent. Keep in mind, however, that American Conservative Protestant Evangelicals have made the word "Christian" into an adjective describing things it was never meant to describe. Now, we can have a "Christian" bookstore, or a "Christian" car dealership, or a "Christian" T-shirt. None of these things can confess Jesus as Lord. You are right that when Jesus says, "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free," he does not have in mind Buddhism or atheism. He means YHWH. However, this was not a clear "us and them" distinction, like we have made it now. This was a deeply held belief that if it is true, it is of God. In some sense, truth was primary, and God was secondary, if only because God was ineffable. We have the order turned around. Even if this is still unpalatable, it is impossible to escape the weight of Wisdom and Understanding as qualities of the virtuous and righteous man (or woman-- Wisdom herself was a woman).

I hope this helps!

TrueMyth

Thanks for joining in!

Aah... proof texts. I hate 'em and I love 'em. I want to get rid of them and find every time I do they are absolutely necessary. I believe that any verse can be taken out of context to prove almost anything in the Bible. I've seen it done, on all sides. I abhor this practice. Not only is immediate context important, so is overall context. However, every time I find myself trying to prove a position without proof-texting, I do this:

"But... *splutter* but *splutter* it's right THERE! *splutter* How can you not SEE it?! *splutter* It's just... *splutter* all over..." (etc)

Proof texts, despite their two-edged nature, are necessary. They are minute evidence for an overarching conclusion. Facts in science are the same way. The same fact in science has often been used to prove two (or more) completely contradictory conclusions. This is a problem with evidence, not the Bible.

Finally, some guidelines to reduce proof-text abuses:
1) Look at immediate context of chapter
2) Look at overall context of book
3) Look at overall context of Testament
4) Look at overall context of Bible
5) Multiple verses are all that "prove" anything. One verse does not an argument make
6) Evaluate each in turn, and not the conclusion they present

As far as the "empty philosophy" and "worldly wisdom" verses go, this is nothing new or surprising. Someone who is absolutely convinced of the truth of their claim will view the other position as utter nonsense. Nothing personal, and no offense meant, but atheists do it all the time. So do Christians. We are all in the same boat. These verses are not speaking against rational thought, but against (what they believe to be) the false conclusions of incorrect rational thought. I also refer you to posts by seebs and Toto which indicate that these are probably against particular philosophies, not reason itself.

Just some thoughts... I look forward to hearing from you!

TrueMyth

Thanks for joining in!

Don't you think on some level you don't want God to exist? Freud and Marx were right to point out that humans want a father figure and comfort in our time of hurt, but don't we also want to be on our own, without anyone telling us what to do and where to go? Don't we also want to be the final word on our own destiny? Isn't that one of the biggest horrors: the Cosmic Meddler? It seems to me that the "wish fulfillment" charge can be used both ways.

Let me know what you think!