bacht

Hmm, theology as an organized discipline may have arisen out of proto-philosophical speculation, but faith and ritual are prehistoric. Sounds like you're interested in thinkers like Augustine or Aquinas, those who took an exisiting set of beliefs and tried to rationalize them.

We're drifting into psychological issues here. I would only add that afaik innovators in any field are usually socially 'different', either gifted in some way or driven to lead or blaze a new path. Since religion is so tied up with emotional response it's not unreasonable to suppose that founders or reformers would be fringe characters as judged by normal standards of behaviour.

A classic thought experiment would be to see what would happen if Jesus or Paul (or even St Francis of Assisi) walked into a contemporary church. My guess is they would be rejected as too strange.

charles

Hi Clive, love your posts but I am little lost where we are going with this? Child abuse? How does that fit in the discussion. Maybe I missed something last night.

Chili

In the full freedom of Utopia 'circumcision of the heart' means that here now we do not do the things we want to do because the mind is not willing and so the flesh is weak. This is just a reversal of our sin nature wherein the mind was willing [to be good] but the flesh was weak. You may call it 'circumsized by natural law' (sex for procreation only so as not to condone sin while "under the law"), which in the end means that we function as the [intuition directed] animal man instead of the rational animal man.

The difference between these two is in the transformation of our mind without cutting our balls especially since sin is already commited when we as much as 'look at a woman in lust' . . . that ultimately the sign of Jonah may be ours.

The sign of Jonah comes our way only when we are not guilty of sin other than the 'original sin' wherefore Jonah was running away from God and was at the end of his own world where he found himself guilty while on a paid fare (= not guilty of transgressional sin), and was on the bottom of a ship (= beyond theology) when the storm of life set in.

Our equivalent here is the Journey to Bethlehem (read: house of bread), wherein Joseph is depicted as much as dragging his ass behind the donkey (the physical body) whereupon Mary was enthroned to lead him back to where he was born and there give birth to his long lost inner child. So it was Joseph who was pregnant [with dispair] (as Joyce put it), and was led by the virgin of virgins (Lk 1:46 by inference) to the place whence he came for she alone knew where that was as his "bone of bones and flesh of flesh."

Clivedurdle

Circumcision is child abuse. What are the medical grounds for it? Was it carried out in a hospital with anaesthesia?

We are discussing people very probably chopping bits off themselves and getting upset about it but seem to have missed the other planks in eyes here - circumcision, bodies on crosses - remember many people do crucify themselves and the other biggy - with this bread, with this wine..

There is a pretence that religion has moved away from these ideas. Has it?

maryhelena

Your probably right...

I'm just on the 'warpath' re those crazy men and their genital mutilation....and of course, the physical suffering in order to gain spiritual insights. As for the rest.....'truth' can come from wherever - but it needs a mind in residence not in abdication...

bacht

I agree with the idea that we can either allow ourselves to be lowered to the level of animals or raised to the level of angels. To me this is one of the key teachings of religion.

But I like Aristotle's construction of virtue as the accumulation of habits of behaviour. Or, in NT terms, the Jacobean emphasis on works vs the Pauline emphasis on faith. Or, in OT terms, the tree is known by its fruits. Or, in modern vernacular, "actions speak louder than words"

stephan huller

I don't remember my own circumcision but my son didn't cry at his. It was done in a hospital almost immediately after he was born. Topical anesthesia. But then again he didn't cry when he was born either. Just a blessed happy child. Unlike his father.

bacht

Well, don't shoot the messenger, I'm just trying to imagine how these people would have looked and sounded to their contemporaries.

There is also a connection here with the warrior mentality, specifically the ideas of courage and discipline. The spiritual warrior sacrifices normal social existence in order to reach a higher level of insight, which he/she ultimately brings back to the community (ie. a hero's quest). Generally the intellectual polish is the last step afaics, refining the raw vision of the prophet, just as political leaders take over from the generals in the field.

Clivedurdle

Don't get mad, get even.

First, let's establish this and be OK with how alien it is. Why haven't we discussed Augustine?

Is the assumption still that we are looking at one off nutters?

I have been working with communities where fgm happens

http://www.theahafoundation.org/

This was the main news item last week.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...th-child-abuse

This follow up article makes horrific reading.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...en-british-law

I understand it is first recorded in the second century bce, but I think we have clear evidence it was first encouraged by xianity and then Islam.

arnoldo

You may very well be right. Perhaps castration became so prevalent that the Romans had to finally write a law against this practice.