Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chocky · 12-16-2009, 04:52 PM

I recently read an interesting article by Robert L. Plummer, giving passages from the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud, describing strange events at the Temple in Jerusalem c.30AD. I haven't found a mention of these sources on this forum, so thought I'd post them - what do you think?

In Tractate Yoma 6:3 of the Jerusalem Talmud:

Quote:

It has been taught: Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open. Said [to the Temple] Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai, "O Temple, why do you frighten us? We know that you will end up destroyed. For it has been said, Open your doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour your cedars!" (Zech 11:1)

In Tractate Yoma 4:1 of the Babylonian Talmud:

Quote:

Our rabbis have taught on Tannaite authority: Forty years before the destruction of the sanctuary, the lot did not come up in the right hand, and the thread of crimson never turned white, and the westernmost light never shone, and the doors of the courtyard would open by themselves.

And in the opinion of the author of the article:

Quote:

"Possibly the most significant corroborating sources for unusual phenomena in the temple around the time of Christ's crucifixion are the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmud. These sources are important because they explicitly indicate a time reference that corresponds to the date of Jesus' crucifixion. Also, as sources preserved by rabbinic Judaism, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud do not face the charge of being tainted by later Christian interpolations.

...it appears to me that there is enough relevant data to warrant considering this information in historical assessments of the Gospel narratives. It is standard in commentaries on the Gospels to include Talmudic references to reports that Jesus was a sorcerer or illegitimate child."

The article is Plummer, Robert L: 'Something awry in the Temple? the rending of the Temple veil and early Jewish sources that report unusual phenomena in the Temple around AD 30', Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 48 no 2 Je 2005, p 301-316

Toto · 12-16-2009, 05:36 PM

The full article is available here.

It is generally considered that the Talmud is too late as a source to be any reliable evidence of the historical Jesus. It may reflect early traditions, but it was not put into writing until centuries later.

I would tend to see these passages as either reactions to the Christian story, or as evidence of the symbolism behind the literary decision to stage Jesus' crucifixion at 40 years before the destruction of the Temple.

arnoldo · 12-16-2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocky

I recently read an interesting article by Robert L. Plummer, giving passages from the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud, describing strange events at the Temple in Jerusalem c.30AD. I haven't found a mention of these sources on this forum, so thought I'd post them - what do you think?

Strange events are also recorded to have occured in that general time period by Julius Africanus

Quote:

Introduction

One of the more remarkable extra-biblical references to Jesus Christ and His crucifixion is to be found in the following quote by Thallus, as related by

Julius Africanus:

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun? Let opinion pass however; let it carry the majority with it; and let this portent of the world be deemed an eclipse of the sun, like others a portent only to the eye. Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth--manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? Surely no such event as this is recorded for a long period. (XVIII.1)

This quote was taken from Julius Africanus’ work “The History of the World” up to about 220 A.D.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/thallcomp.html

aa5874 · 12-16-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocky

I recently read an interesting article by Robert L. Plummer, giving passages from the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud, describing strange events at the Temple in Jerusalem c.30AD. I haven't found a mention of these sources on this forum, so thought I'd post them - what do you think?

Strange events are also recorded to have occured in that general time period by Julius Africanus

Quote:

Introduction

One of the more remarkable extra-biblical references to Jesus Christ and His crucifixion is to be found in the following quote by Thallus, as related by

Julius Africanus:

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun? Let opinion pass however; let it carry the majority with it; and let this portent of the world be deemed an eclipse of the sun, like others a portent only to the eye. Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth--manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? Surely no such event as this is recorded for a long period. (XVIII.1)

This quote was taken from Julius Africanus’ work “The History of the World” up to about 220 A.D.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/thallcomp.html

In other words, no such eclipse ever took place. The moon was on the other side of the earth and not between the sun and earth. There can be no eclipse of the sun on the 14th day of Nissan.

arnoldo · 12-16-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Strange events are also recorded to have occured in that general time period by Julius Africanus

In other words, no such eclipse ever took place. The moon was on the other side of the earth and not between the sun and earth. There can be no eclipse of the sun on the 14th day of Nissan.

The gospels don't mention an eclipse, merely darkness. . .

aa5874 · 12-16-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

In other words, no such eclipse ever took place. The moon was on the other side of the earth and not between the sun and earth. There can be no eclipse of the sun on the 14th day of Nissan.

The gospels don't mention an eclipse, merely darkness. . .

You are the one who claimed strange events were recorded to have happened around that time by Africanus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Strange events are also recorded to have occured in that general time period by Julius Africanus

So please tell me what strange event did happen around that time?

Eclipse, darkness, resurrection? What did happen? You know.

mountainman · 12-16-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The gospels don't mention an eclipse, merely darkness. . .

A very reliable source informs us that Arius of Alexandria wrote
about this event three hundred years later in the following manner ....

‘The heaven,’ as the Prophet says, ‘was astonished,
and the earth shuddered’ at the transgression of the Law.

But the sun, with greater horror,
impatient of the bodily contumelies,
which the common Lord of all
voluntarily endured for us, turned away,
and recalling his rays made that day sunless. "

In regard to the Talmud compilations they commence
from 200 CE at the earliest with major revisions in the
fourth century and periodically thereafter as a result
of persecutory and intolerant Christian purges seeking
some favorable trace of their legendary "Historical Jesus
Jig Saw Puzzle". The problem is that there are no authentic
bits to any part of the Early Christian Jig Saw puzzle before
quite late in the period in question.

show_no_mercy · 12-17-2009, 06:41 AM

Are there any time periods where there weren't any strange, supernatural things happening in antiquity?

neilgodfrey · 12-18-2009, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocky

I recently read an interesting article by Robert L. Plummer, giving passages from the Babylonian Talmud and Jerusalem Talmud, describing strange events at the Temple in Jerusalem c.30AD. I haven't found a mention of these sources on this forum, so thought I'd post them - what do you think?

I think Plummer needs a reality check. He concludes:

Quote:

it appears to me that there is enough relevant data to warrant considering this information in historical assessments of the Gospel narratives (p.316)

And what is "this information" specifically? Miracles:

of the temple veil being torn
of a supernatural light shining from the altar in the Temple
an earthquake (just at this place and time!)

These are said to have happened, "strikingly", at the same time as Jesus' crucifixion, and are worthy of serious historical consideration because they come from:

Quote:

"Early Jewish sources which seem to corroborate evidence for supernatural phenomena in the temple at the time of, or following, Christ's crucifixion" (p. 306)

(As for all this happening at the time of Christ, the Jewish sources merely say it was all 40 years before the destruction of the temple. 40 is a favourite number for the assignment of significance throughout Jewish theological and literary -- and even non-Jewish -- themes from ancient times. Nor is there any discussion raised about such portents being a standard motif attached to any ancient event of significance, Jewish and non-Jewish.)

Possibly also open for consideration by Plummer:

the manorah light going out, and/or a darkness over the land
temple doors opening by themselves

He does not make overmuch of the list of miracles listed by Josephus, but does remind us that Josephus himself said he would find them incredible except for the fact that they had been reported by eyewitnesses! These included the heifer being brought to the temple for sacrifice having kittens (or rather a lamb). I do not know why Plummer failed to mention that according to eyewitnesses it was a lamb that was born from this heifer, however.

Do western 21st century developed societies really support scholars spending their time with this sort of "research"?

Toto · 12-18-2009, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

...
Do western 21st century developed societies really support scholars spending their time with this sort of "research"?

Yes, they do. The evangelicals argued that if Universities could tolerate post modern eco-vegetarian-marxist critical theory, they could surely tolerate Bible believing Christians.

But this is part of the reason this developed society is headed for third world status.

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12-16-2009, 05:36 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The full article is available here. It is generally considered that the Talmud is too late as a source to be any reliable evidence of the historical Jesus. It may reflect early traditions, but it was not put into writing until centuries later. I would tend to see these passages as either reactions to the Christian story, or as evidence of the symbolism behind the literary decision to stage Jesus' crucifixion at 40 years before the destruction of the Temple.

12-17-2009, 06:41 AM	#8
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Are there any time periods where there weren't any strange, supernatural things happening in antiquity?

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