Steven Carr

That is right.

Mr. Kesatie, of the Christian Cadre, thinks God knows what all possible people (even people not actually created in this universe) would have done in all possible circumstances.

God knows this before anybody has been created.

Then God decides which people to create , and which circumstances. But God only creates people AFTER he infallibly learns what every conceivable being would do in every situation.

Question. How could God get infallible knowledge of what eg Gore would have done if he had been elected President, or what Batman would have done in a universe containing the Caped Crusader, if Gore and Batman supposedly had free will to choose?

Remember, Kesatie thinks God infallibly knows all our choices, even if we never actually exist to make them, or are never in those circumstances!

How could that infallible knowledge of our actions have been created, before we were created?

funinspace

We are just a "Dream within a Dream" of that caped crusader.

Of course your on the money, since like said previously, where's the freewill in such a formulation. It's just part and parsel of the circular reasoning that tries to keep all the pieces together.

Towards the original question/comment, these types of verses are never used to call out to unbelievers. And in fact are treaded upon very lightly within the Church pulpits and Bible classes. But since the verses are there, the literalist has to defend it all costs. All flavors of Xianity have certain verses they hide from lest their spin/preferences be questioned.

DK

scumble

Just looks like Calvinism to me.

WinAce

William Craig calls this "Middle Knowledge"; it's basically determinism given a nifty-sounding name. How one reconciles that with the libertarian free will required by the FW defense is anybody's guess.

Steven Carr

Especially as Craig insists God has this middle knowledge BEFORE God creates a world.

So God must have created this knowledge out of nothing.

After all , nothing existed before God created the world out of nothing.

Craig makes the bizarre statement in
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billc...s/middle2.html

'Hence, logically prior, if not chronologically prior, to God's creation of the world is the divine deliberation concerning which world to actualize.'

So God decides which world to actualise , chronologically after he has created the world?!?

Mormon Mike

STEVEN CARR

Just because God knows what we will do, does this effect our ability to make our own decisions?


Perhaps we have existed and will exist infinitely and God simply organized material for our earthly bodys much like he organized the materials to form the earth. Perhaps God knew us as spirit beings before sending us to earth and hence learned who we are and how we would choose, again this would not eliminate our responsibility to choose.

Th1nk3r

Yes, if God knows infaillibly what we will do there is no way he could be wrong about the choices we make. Free will is suddenly a little less free, don't you think???

Mormon Mike

Just because He knows what will we will choose does not mean he forces us to make the decision. We do not know whether he knows if we will choose A or B, so we still have to make the choice in our lives.

To me it would not be free will if he, knowing that we will choose A, forces us to choose A and eliminates the option for B, Then and only then is it no longer our decision to be made.

Personally I think this is a very interesting topic!

Amaleq13

At the risk of having this thread moved to Philosophy...

The "free" part of a "free choice" is the freedom to select from any of the available options.

If God knows beforehand that you will choose A, there is no possibility you might choose B.

If there is no possibility you might choose B, the choice of A was not free.

The best you can obtain, in this circumstance, is the illusion that you were free to choose B.

Endymion83

Exactly my thoughts as well.