Elijah

Nations have a tendency to celebrate gaining their independence and to think that it is secondary to the ritual, they performed to establish they had control over the nation, after they won, would need to be justified some.
It wouldn’t be celebrating over the South but the British and Loyalists.

To carry the American Revolution comparison further. I’m worried he is taking American rejection of English rule and trying to make it out as rejection of English enlightenment. He’s confusing their rejection of the King George for rejection of Thomas Paine.

Now it probably comes from me only looking to specific texts but what I usually read isn’t Jewish rejection of Greek reason but the opposite, to the point of trying to say that Plato got his ideas from his trip to Egypt after hearing about Moses. I’m familiar with Philo and Origen trying to mesh Jewish and Greek thought into one. I don’t even know what the fundamentalist Jew who was rejecting their reason would sound like, which is why I asked Toto for an example.

I’ve heard of Christianity being a product of Greek ideas but the idea that it is in opposition to Greek philosophy from infiltrating their nation needs to be explained. Even if he is correct about the early rebellion being on the wrong side of the philosophical movement, I don’t understand how he jumped to Christianity being a plagiarism of it.

show_no_mercy

It actually looks like the American Civil War is a better analogy. The civil war was between Hellenized Jews and the traditionalists. Among other things, the Hellenized Jews rejected circumcision, the traditionalists wanted to keep it. Obviously, this is due to the Greeks viewing circumcision as being barbaric, much like how many in the 19th century saw slavery as barbaric.

Many Greek cities were set up in and around the Judean area after Alexander's conquest and to be a person of some repute one would have to participate in many of the Greek socializing events, like the Gymnasiums - where males went around in their birthday suits. In this state its pretty obvious who is circumcised and who wasn't, probably leading to some scorn.

The affinity with Christianity is probably obvious at this point.

So it wasn't so much about a rejection of Greek though (after all, many "fundamentalist" Jews took up Greek names - like Hyrcanus) but to what extent Jews should assimilate to Greek culture. Production of the LXX, was on the positive side. Lessening the restrictions of the laws of Moses and circumcision was negative for others. In the end, those who wanted to abolish circumcision lost and the traditionalists won.

Elijah

I think the occupying empire is the most important aspect of the conflict. I think the Loyalists match up better with the Hellenized Jews, who were sympathetic to the controlling empire. The Loyalists may have been responsible for escalating the conflict or looking to make political gains from having their opposition taken out but it’s still a conflict between a Nation and a foreign oppressor, more than it’s a civil war.

It would be like if tomorrow someone rose up in Iraq and kicked out all foreign military. It wouldn’t be seen as a victory over American sympathizers in the nation but a victory over America.

It’s not an empire trying to push reason or compassion on an uncivilized society that is being rejected but an empire looking to control the world.

I’m sure within the history of Judaism there is a better example of a civil war over an ethical issue, more so than the Maccabees revolt.

I think it was more of a compromise and evolution of ideas. The traditions and scripture of the Jewish people were being interpreted in the light of what the Greeks were philosophizing. I may be projecting Philo over the intellectual community of the time but I think he’s more of the standard, than someone just trying to blindly preserve or reject traditions. I don’t know the Hellenized Jew that rejects circumcision; I know the one that interprets it symbolically.

storytime

Goldberg comes to mind. He's a whop-ass professional wrestling Jew, I think if he's still on the circuit.

AdamWho

From a US perspective it is hard to get worked up about such a toothless and insular religion as Judaism. This view may not be shared in other parts of the world.

premjan

Well, he's probably trying to be an equal opportunity criticizer. Or antisemitic in some sort of backhanded way.

J842P

:notworthy:

Zed

The holiday itself is laughable. God supposedly responded to the slaying of countless Jews, the suffering of many others, and the destruction and desecration of Judaism's holiest temple (His very house), He responded to all that by giving the Jews...

Energy efficient candles?

What the fuck? So what did God do about the Holocaust? Did the Jews' flashlights last 8 days longer?

semiopen

I'm not sure there is a better example, Jews are pretty tolerant of other Jews.

Jewish_schisms discusses these.

The most famous one is probably the Jews and Christians.

The Sabbateans and the Frankists was interesting, but those piddled away into nothing although the Donmeh existed into at least the 20th century.

If a sect is annoying enough they will be kicked out. However the paragraph on Karaite Judaism surprised me.

I brought up the patrilineal descent feature of Karaism in the Who is a Jew thread in AR, but was unable to make much of an impression on guys who were matrilineally descended (and no doubt conservative or worse in the bargain).

PhilosopherJay

Hi Zed,

Ridiculous, certainly, but don't we always hide the absurd with the ridiculous? For example, what does a fat man in a red suit coming down a chimney with gifts have to do with the birth of the man/god, world savior, be happy/don't worry philosopher of Christian myth?

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay