Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 06-22-2010, 06:52 PM

How did Christianity begin?

Once upon a time, in the Greek (ie: non Jewish) language
and in the high technology of the codex ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

The options in this poll derive from an earlier thread discussing this topic.

If you can explain another option on this thread I will include it in a future version of this poll.

Maybe you need another option that says .....

We do have enough information to draw and process hypotheses.

or even ....

We do not have enough evidence to fill an empty set. What does it all mean?

J-D · 06-22-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

This thread is not concerned with the origin of Catholic Christianity, or the origin of Orthodox Christianity, or the origin of Protestant Christianity, or the origin of any other particular subdivision of Christianity. It's concerned with the origin of Christianity itself.
.

Sorry... I do not think I understand your clarification ... In your opinion, what I have spoken about?

Since you began your post by referring to the origin of Catholic Christianity, I assumed that you were talking about the origin of Catholic Christianity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

The term Christianity is absolutly a generic term!

Yes. So what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

... It is simply to indicate that the followers of this cult, or even simply a political movement (such as Judeo-zealot) refer to a certain 'messianic figure'

No. Mahdists and Sabbateans referred to a 'messianic figure' but were not Christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

... The Zealots, for example, referring to the Meshiah (Christos in Greek language) of the Jewish common imaginary. They were called in Hebrew 'Meshichiyim' (christianoi in greek, 'christians' or 'messianists' in english)

Etymology is not identity. In the English language now, 'Christian' and 'Messianist' are not synonyms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Littlejohn

The Catholics Christian, however, made reference to 'Messiah' Jesus of Nazareth, while the Jewish Christians were referred to a yet different messiah...

Anyway, I apologize if I inadvertently introduced 'noise' in the thread ....

Littlejohn

.

No need for an apology. People will post what they like, where they like. I know that. But I had a particular question in mind for the thread and want to keep clarifying it.

J-D · 06-22-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

How did Christianity begin?

Once upon a time, in the Greek (ie: non Jewish) language
and in the high technology of the codex ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

The options in this poll derive from an earlier thread discussing this topic.

If you can explain another option on this thread I will include it in a future version of this poll.

Maybe you need another option that says .....

We do have enough information to draw and process hypotheses.

or even ....

We do not have enough evidence to fill an empty set. What does it all mean?

No, I don't think I do.

aa5874 · 06-22-2010, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

But, no credible evidence from antiquity support any option that you have supplied.

Did you read as far as the fifth option?

You seem not to understand that I have included the fifth option.

The evidence from sources of antiquity show that "Christianity" did not start with or did not need Jesus, Paul or Constantine.

The word "Christian" is derived from the Greek "anointed".

This is the EVIDENCE from "Theophilus to Autolycus" XII

Quote:

And about your laughing at me and calling me "Christian," you know not what you are saying. First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible........... Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.

The existence or non-existence of Jesus, Paul or Constantine has NO effect whatsoever on the "Christians" who believed that they were "anointed with the oil of God".

And further, Justin Martyr did write that there were people called "Christians" who did not believe in JESUS during the reign of Claudius which was before the Jesus stories were written.

Iskander · 06-22-2010, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

How did Christianity begin?

Once upon a time, in the Greek (ie: non Jewish) language
and in the high technology of the codex ...

Maybe you need another option that says .....

We do have enough information to draw and process hypotheses.

or even ....

We do not have enough evidence to fill an empty set. What does it all mean?

No, I don't think I do.

I thought you were going to surrender to the whimsical!

Professor Dale estimates the first letter of paul to have been written in the year 50 AD.
The gospel of Mark is dated 70 AD writing down material used in the oral tradition.
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studie...lecture02.html

Transcript

Quote:

The oldest written materials of Christianity are actually the letters of Paul. This may come as a surprise, because you get to the gospels first in the New Testament. And most people assume, "Oh, the gospels, they're about the life of Jesus. That must be the oldest stuff." Well, the gospels are actually all written after the letters of Paul were written by 20 or 30 years. So the oldest material we have are the letters of Paul. And the oldest one of those letters is 1 Thessalonians, probably, dated to
around the year 50 or thereabouts. Pretty quickly, though, different churches, probably Paul's churches, initially, started sending around copies of Paul's letters. Remember, there's no printing press in the ancient world. Whenever your church would get a copy of one of these letters from Paul, you would have scribes, often slaves, because slaves were especially trained to be scribes. They would take that letter, and they would make a copy of it. And then, they might keep theoriginal, and they'd send the copy off to somebody else. Or they might keep the copy and send the original off to somebody. And so letters would be copied, and books would be copied and sent around from different communities. This obviously happened.

So we can tell that the gospels start off with oral tradition that's being passed around, different sayings and stories about Jesus. And then, gradually, but only about 40 years after the death of Jesus, the Gospel of Mark is in the year 70. If Jesus was crucified around the year 30 that's a 40 year period of time between the death of Jesus and the appearance of the first gospel that we possess. Although there were other written materials being passed around during that time.

mountainman · 06-22-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Professor Dale estimates .....

Professor Dale is entitled to his one vote.
The Dutch radicals assert Paul's letters are 2nd century.
Where will it all end?

Quote:

Pretty quickly, though, different churches, probably Paul's churches, initially, started sending around copies of Paul's letters. Remember, there's no printing press in the ancient world. Whenever your church would get a copy of one of these letters from Paul, you would have scribes, often slaves, because slaves were especially trained to be scribes. They would take that letter, and they would make a copy of it. And then, they might keep theoriginal, and they'd send the copy off to somebody else. Or they might keep the copy and send the original off to somebody. And so letters would be copied, and books would be copied and sent around from different communities. This obviously happened.

So we can tell that the gospels start off with oral tradition
that's being passed around, different sayings and stories about Jesus.

But all the earliest NT codices and manuscripts and fragments
right down to the smallest NT papyri fragments at the Oxy Tip
exhibit a universally employed written "nomina sacra" editorship.

This obviously happened early.
Who was this universal early NT editor of the nomina sacra?

Iskander · 06-22-2010, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Professor Dale estimates .....

Professor Dale is entitled to his one vote.
The Dutch radicals assert Paul's letters are 2nd century.
Where will it all end?.....................................

Need not ever end, but a little less shouting by some and giving up the global flooding of the forum with endless repetitive stuff may, hopefully, happen

aa5874 · 06-22-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-D

No, I don't think I do.

I thought you were going to surrender to the whimsical!

Professor Dale estimates the first letter of paul to have been written in the year 50 AD.
The gospel of Mark is dated 70 AD writing down material used in the oral tradition.
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studie...lecture02.html

Transcript

Quote:

The oldest written materials of Christianity are actually the letters of Paul. This may come as a surprise, because you get to the gospels first in the New Testament. And most people assume, "Oh, the gospels, they're about the life of Jesus. That must be the oldest stuff." Well, the gospels are actually all written after the letters of Paul were written by 20 or 30 years. So the oldest material we have are the letters of Paul. And the oldest one of those letters is 1 Thessalonians, probably, dated to
around the year 50 or thereabouts. Pretty quickly, though, different churches, probably Paul's churches, initially, started sending around copies of Paul's letters. Remember, there's no printing press in the ancient world. Whenever your church would get a copy of one of these letters from Paul, you would have scribes, often slaves, because slaves were especially trained to be scribes. They would take that letter, and they would make a copy of it. And then, they might keep theoriginal, and they'd send the copy off to somebody else. Or they might keep the copy and send the original off to somebody. And so letters would be copied, and books would be copied and sent around from different communities. This obviously happened.

So we can tell that the gospels start off with oral tradition that's being passed around, different sayings and stories about Jesus. And then, gradually, but only about 40 years after the death of Jesus, the Gospel of Mark is in the year 70. If Jesus was crucified around the year 30 that's a 40 year period of time between the death of Jesus and the appearance of the first gospel that we possess. Although there were other written materials being passed around during that time.

This passage is propaganda based on "Chinese Whispers". There is no corroborative historical source for dating the Pauline writings even the Church claimed Saul/Paul of Acts wrote ALL the Pauline Epistles.

P46 has been dated to the 2nd-3rd century not the 1st century.

Secondly, it is mere propaganda that slaves often were scribes when it can be shown that a scribe was often a professional, of the social elite class and well-educated in antiquity.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe

Littlejohn · 06-22-2010, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874:

....And further, Justin Martyr did write that there were people called "Christians" who did not believe in JESUS during the reign of Claudius which was before the Jesus stories were written.
.

That is much interesting ... Have you read this step yourself in the works of Justin, or simply you report the contents of any review? ...

Greetings

Littlejohn
.

mountainman · 06-22-2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

...and giving up the global flooding of the forum with endless repetitive stuff may, hopefully, happen

You mean like public opinion polls on the origins of christianity? Good luck.

View Poll Results: How did Christianity begin?
With people listening to the teachings of Jesus, derived from his interpretation of Jewish tradition	9	18.37%
With people listening to the teachings of Paul, derived from his visions produced by meditation techniques, neurological abnormality, drug use, or some combination	7	14.29%
With people listening to the teachings of Paul deliberately fabricated to attract a following	3	6.12%
With the Emperor Constantine promulgating for political purposes a religion which he had had deliberately fabricated	4	8.16%
We do not have enough information to draw a conclusion	26	53.06%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

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