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Old 06-03-2012, 10:20 PM   #1
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Default Irenaeus Admits the Human Jesus 'Couldn't Be Understood' Originally

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If any one, therefore, reads the Scriptures with attention, he will find in them an account of Christ, and a foreshadowing of the new calling (vocationis). For Christ is the treasure which was hid in the field, that is, in this world (for "the field is the world"); but the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables. Hence His human nature could not be understood, prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ. And therefore it was said to Daniel the prophet: "Shut up the words, and seal the book even to the time of consummation, until many learn, and knowledge be completed. For at that time, when the dispersion shall be accomplished, they shall know all these things." But Jeremiah also says, "In the last days they shall understand these things." For every prophecy, before its fulfilment, is to men [full of] enigmas and ambiguities. But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition.

And for this reason, indeed, when at this present time the law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; for they do not possess the explanation of all things pertaining to the advent of the Son of God, which took place in human nature; but when it is read by the Christians, it is a treasure, hid indeed in a field, but brought to light by the cross of Christ, and explained, both enriching the understanding of men, and showing forth the wisdom of God and declaring His dispensations with regard to man, and forming the kingdom of Christ beforehand, and preaching by anticipation the inheritance of the holy Jerusalem, and proclaiming beforehand that the man who loves God shall arrive at such excellency as even to see God, and hear His word, and from the hearing of His discourse be glorified to such an extent, that others cannot behold the glory of his countenance, as was said by Daniel: "Those who do understand, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and many of the righteous as the stars for ever and ever.'' Thus, then, I have shown it to be, if any one read the Scriptures. For thus it was that the Lord discoursed with, the disciples after His resurrection from the dead, proving to them from the Scriptures themselves "that Christ must suffer, and enter into His glory, and that remission of sins should be preached in His name throughout all the world." And the disciple will be perfected, and [rendered] like the householder, "who bringeth forth from his treasure things new and old."

2. Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church,--those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father. But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismaries puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory. For all these have fallen from the truth. And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the altar of God--namely, strange doctrines--shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud.

But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell (apud inferos), being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and Abiron. But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did.

3. Those, however, who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts, and, do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt towards others, and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat, and work evil deeds in secret, saying, "No man sees us," shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance (secundum gloriam), nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words, to be found in Daniel the prophet: "O thou seed of Canaan, and not of Judah, beauty hath deceived thee, and lust perverted thy heart. Thou that art waxen old in wicked days, now thy sins which thou hast committed aforetime are come to light; for thou hast pronounced false judgments, and hast been accustomed to condemn the innocent, and to let the guilty go free, albeit the Lord saith, The innocent and the righteous shalt thou not slay." Of whom also did the Lord say: "But if the evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, and shall begin to smite the man-servants and maidens, and to eat and drink and be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day that he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers."

4. From all such persons, therefore, it be-bores us to keep aloof, but to adhere to those who, as I have already observed, do hold the doctrine of the apostles, and who, together with the order of priesthood (presbyterii ordine), display sound speech and blameless conduct for the confirmation and correction of others. In this way, Moses, to whom such a leadership was entrusted, relying on a good conscience, cleared himself before God, saying, "I have not in covetousness taken anything belonging to one of these men, nor have I done evil to one of them." In this way, too, Samuel, who judged the people so many years, and bore rule over Israel without any pride, in the end cleared himself, saying, "I have walked before you from my childhood even unto this day: answer me in the sight of God, and before His anointed (Christi ejus); whose ox or whose ass of yours have I taken, or over whom have I tyrannized, or whom have I oppressed? or if I have received from the hand of any a bribe or [so much as] a shoe, speak out against me, and I will restore it to you." And when the people had said to him, "Thou hast not tyrannized, neither hast thou oppressed us neither hast thou taken ought of any man's hand," he called the Lord to witness, saying, "The Lord is witness, and His Anointed is witness this day, that ye have not found ought in my hand. And they said to him, He is witness."

In this strain also the Apostle Paul, inasmuch as he had a good conscience, said to the Corinthians: "For we are not as many, who corrupt the Word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ;" "We have injured no man, corrupted no man, circumvented no man."

5. Such presbyters does the Church nourish, of whom also the prophet says: "I will give thy rulers in peace, and thy bishops in righteousness." Of whom also did the Lord declare, "Who then shall be a faithful steward (actor), good and wise, whom the Lord sets over His household, to give them their meat in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing." Paul then, teaching us where one may find such, says, "God hath placed in the Church, first, apostles; secondly, prophets; thirdly, teachers." Where, therefore, the gifts of the Lord have been placed, there it behoves us to learn the truth, [namely,] from those who possess that succession of the Church which is from the apostles? and among whom exists that which is sound and blameless in conduct, as well as that which is unadulterated and incorrupt in speech.

For these also preserve this faith of ours in one God who created all things; and they increase that love [which we have] for the Son of God, who accomplished such marvellous dispensations for our sake: and they expound the Scriptures to us without danger, neither blaspheming God, nor dishonouring the patriarchs, nor despising the prophets.[AH 4.26]
Surely Irenaeus can't mean that the Jews thought Jesus was a God. I can't figure out what the highlighted words mean unless it is that Jesus was thought to be a God by his contemporaries but only afterward was it revealed that he was the messiah of scriptures. What I also found interesting is that this argument is presented as part of a battle within the Church linked to episcopal succession. The fragment against the sect of Artemas (Artemon) reveals the same situation. This material seems to have been written early in the third century.
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Old 06-03-2012, 11:09 PM   #2
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We can begin to date the passage to late in the reign of Victor (188 - 198 CE) - so perhaps coinciding with the beginning of the reign of Septimius Severus (c. 195 CE). The reason for this is that we know from the Artemas (Aretmon) fragment that the gospels are said to have been corrupted fully by the reign of Zephyrinus (but with an implication that this process began in the reign of Victor). Irenaeus also makes it clear Florinus was a presbyter during the reign of Victor but that eventually he convinced him to throw him out.

I follow Lampe's connection of Irenaeus (AH 4.2) attesting that the anti-Valentinian authors before him had little success with their polemic (non... satis potuerunt contradicere his, qui sunt a Valentino). He judges the reason they had little success was that they were ignorant regarding the esoteric doctrines of the Valentinians (quia ignorabant regulam ipsorum). That corresponds to Victor's ignorance.

I think this means that Book Four was written c. 195 CE.
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Old 06-04-2012, 04:51 AM   #3
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If any one, therefore, reads the Scriptures with attention, he will find in them an account of Christ, and a foreshadowing of the new calling (vocationis). For Christ is the treasure which was hid in the field, that is, in this world (for "the field is the world"); but the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables. Hence His human nature could not be understood, prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ. And therefore it was said to Daniel the prophet: "Shut up the words, and seal the book even to the time of consummation, until many learn, and knowledge be completed. For at that time, when the dispersion shall be accomplished, they shall know all these things." But Jeremiah also says, "In the last days they shall understand these things." For every prophecy, before its fulfilment, is to men [full of] enigmas and ambiguities. But when the time has arrived, and the prediction has come to pass, then the prophecies have a clear and certain exposition.

And for this reason, indeed, when at this present time the law is read to the Jews, it is like a fable; for they do not possess the explanation of all things pertaining to the advent of the Son of God, which took place in human nature; but when it is read by the Christians, it is a treasure, hid indeed in a field, but brought to light by the cross of Christ, and explained, both enriching the understanding of men, and showing forth the wisdom of God and declaring His dispensations with regard to man, and forming the kingdom of Christ beforehand, and preaching by anticipation the inheritance of the holy Jerusalem, and proclaiming beforehand that the man who loves God shall arrive at such excellency as even to see God, and hear His word, and from the hearing of His discourse be glorified to such an extent, that others cannot behold the glory of his countenance, as was said by Daniel: "Those who do understand, shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and many of the righteous as the stars for ever and ever.'' Thus, then, I have shown it to be, if any one read the Scriptures. For thus it was that the Lord discoursed with, the disciples after His resurrection from the dead, proving to them from the Scriptures themselves "that Christ must suffer, and enter into His glory, and that remission of sins should be preached in His name throughout all the world." And the disciple will be perfected, and [rendered] like the householder, "who bringeth forth from his treasure things new and old."

2. Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church,--those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles[AH 4.26]
Surely Irenaeus can't mean that the Jews thought Jesus was a God.
He didn't intimate that. He merely paraphrased Old and New Testament text— incorrectly, because the humanity of the Messiah, "God, with us," was plain from the Eden allegory, to the Levitical code, to the Prophets. No Jew could have failed to accept that Jesus was his or her Messiah. The miracles, the fulfilment of prophecy, the extraordinary power of his teaching, compelled faith among those familiar with the Scripture and its nuance, even more than Gentiles with little or none of this lore were compelled. But, as predicted/prophesied, not all Jews would accept Jesus as his or her Messiah. In John 6, when they realised what Messiah-hood really involved, most of Jesus' disciples drifted away, leaving just the twelve he had personally selected. It is therefore no surprise that many of those who were never his disciples rejected him.

'"See, this child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed— and a sword will pass through your own soul— to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed." Lk 2:34-35

And hidden thoughts and motives really were revealed, as we well know.

But then, Irenaeus was egregiously an interloper. Not one of the 'early fathers' (better described as imperial puppets) could have escaped the instant condemnation and contempt of Christians; their evident success betrays the presence of coercive agents within a dying church within the empire. This presence of course was not, is not unexpected:

'But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will surreptitiously introduce destructive heresies.' 2 Pe 2:1

'Certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have stealthily slipped in among you... shepherds who feed only themselves.' Jude 4,12

'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.' Ac 20:29-30 NIV

It was standard technique for imperial puppets to give impression of loyal following of Scripture, liberally parroting Paul's style, before an attempt to entail obedience upon one's readers, such as this:

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Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church,--those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles
There's the fatal error, succession; because, as already seen, Peter, Paul, Jude, and even John, gave sharp warning against placing trust in any leader at all without very careful assessment. Even as they wrote, there were battles with antichrists within the church; and this was before the spies and placemen of the Roman Empire, an invasive potential throughout the empire, had been alerted.

Every congregation had no option but to deal with its own situation autonomously, because no central authority was ever established, and local episcopacy (that was multiple) was locally elected. All that was left them was memory of the apostles, personal or through common lore, and of course their letters, added to other Scripture. By coercion, episcopacy was made monarchical, and eventually, locally absent, being taken over in the pattern of imperial civil administration, and kept on a tight leash by the imperium. This total inversion of the polity of the church was in turn used to totally invert the gospel, permitting the Roman Empire to totally revert to its old paganisms under a Christian banner. It was put to use by totalitarian regimes right into modern times, adopted by the fascist governments of Franco, Salazar and others. Adolf Hitler modelled the Third Reich on neat inversion of the polity of the ekklesia of the Galilean artisan who had stood up in a synagogue to speak freely.
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:23 AM   #4
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For Christ is the treasure which was hid in the field, that is, in this world (for "the field is the world"); but the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables. Hence His human nature could not be understood, prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ.
I think it means that Christ was embodied in or predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures, but no one understood the predictions until he actually arrived in the flesh.

But I'm never sure with Irenaeus.
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Old 06-04-2012, 08:36 AM   #5
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For Christ is the treasure which was hid in the field, that is, in this world (for "the field is the world"); but the treasure hid in the Scriptures is Christ, since He was pointed out by means of types and parables. Hence His human nature could not be understood, prior to the consummation of those things which had been predicted, that is, the advent of Christ.
I think it means that Christ was embodied in or predicted in the Hebrew Scriptures, but no one understood the predictions until he actually arrived in the flesh.

But I'm never sure with Irenaeus.
Hello Toto.

Did you get my message? ..

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Old 06-04-2012, 10:34 AM   #6
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It's impossible to be sure about "Irenaeus" who writes about presbyters, succession of apostles and episcopate backdated into the 2nd century from the emerging church of officialdom of the 4th or 5th centuries.
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Old 06-04-2012, 11:24 AM   #7
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What I also found interesting is that this argument is presented as part of a battle within the Church linked to episcopal succession.
That would be no surprise at all.

My (amateur) position has always been that the cult-infighting requirement for a Jesus known personally by the ancestors of one sub-sect of the cult, is the tail that wags the dog of this whole business. ("Your apostle only knew Jesus in vision, our apostles knew him personally, so there!")

Put simply: the idea that Jesus was known personally to anyone (i.e. eyeballed in human form by any of the early people in the movement) is not found in the earlier material.

That claim comes first in the innocent euhemerization of GMark, and then, riffing off that, it appears as a culpable attempt to persuade, by what was initially a sub-sect, but later became "orthodoxy". And then it's read back into the earlier material thereafter.

I think it was all part of a struggle to unify, co-opt and make lucrative, what was originally a more wooly, diverse sort of movement (more like the "New Age" today) - a struggle which met fierce resistance (e.g. Judas gospel) that we just don't have the texts of now.
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Old 06-04-2012, 04:56 PM   #8
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We can begin to date the passage to late in the reign of Victor (188 - 198 CE) - so perhaps coinciding with the beginning of the reign of Septimius Severus (c. 195 CE)....
What!!! Please!!! You ought to know how ancient texts are Dated. Your method of dating means that the TF must have been written in the first century because it is found in Antiquities of the Jews and that the Seneca\Paul letters were composed when Nero was Emperor.
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