ApostateAbe

And that point is relevant to the severe plausibility problem of Atwill. It is much easier for governors to work with the religion that already exists than to engineer and popularize a new religion from scratch.

sotto voce

Very few states see it that way!

Clivedurdle

We have two major examples last century of states engineering religions - fascism and communism. Why should not the Romans have pulled together some existing ideas in a new way? It is only playing chemistry with ideas.

ApostateAbe

Who were the state actors who engineered the ideology of either communism or fascism?

ApostateAbe

Then cite examples and/or make an argument!

jdboy

And this is what atwill is claiming. The romans took judaism and modified.

ApostateAbe

And i am claiming that isnt plausible. States dont drastically modify religions. They work with religions that already exist as they already exist.

sotto voce

It's the people who make subjective statements beginning with personal pronouns who demand objectivity from others!

ApostateAbe

Well, all kinds of reasonable people demand objectivity from others, but, if you would like for me to back up my assertions with evidence, feel free to say so, and I will comply.

sotto voce

It would surely be more useful to identify even one state that did not get involved with religion than to list every state and its association. I just don't have the time! But it could be instructive to know how states adapt to the religion of their people.