Magus55

All humans are already condemned to Hell by their own sin. Hell is the default for a sinner, because Sin can't enter Heaven. Getting to Heaven, requires redemption from sin, which only God can do.

Magus55

No, because Soteriology is about Salvation, and works can NEVER save you. Works have no meaning when it comes to where you end up. Works are only judged afterwards. There is a link between faith and works, but faith saves you, works don't.

Mageth

So, when Satan is portrayed as having his little face-to-face conversation with God in Job, that was before Satan fell? Or does that rule only apply to humans?

Angrillori

Which is completely irrelevant to what I said.

You point out, that, while we are being forced into hell, he won't force us into heaven.

We have to ask to get into heaven, but we don't have to ask to go to hell.

I appreciate that you can repeat what I said. That he will force us into hell, but not force us into heaven, that he won't "throw us through the door" to heaven, but will "throw us through the door" to hell. However, your repetition of the fact in no way addresses the issue at hand.

So, nice attempted dodge, and I'll give you points for effort, but still fail on execution.

Edit to add: Plus what Mageth said--Satan got in to talk with YaHooWaHoo, so your allegation that sin can't enter heaven is wrong out the gate.

But no matter what, it boils down to:

He will force us into hell, but won't force us into heaven. That's f-ed up.

funinspace

You care to explain how this works for the Jews before the Christ came? Since they were supposed to be doing sacrafices of their own for redemption. The rules seam allot fuzzier in the Hebrew canon. It sure seams allot changed with the the "new". Of course hell was allot fuzzier as well.

DK

blt to go

Well, Magus55, at least you are attempting to provide an apologetic for the contradictions, and I can appreciate the effort. So, If you are willing, how about this one that seems a bit sticky to me?

David taking a census. (To save bandwith, the three accounts of this event are at 2 Samuel 24:1-25, 1 Chronicles 21:1-28 and 1 Chronicles 27:24. Please read at your leisure)

Having read such, I have a few questions. Most are multiple choice to make it easy. (“A�= 2 Sam., “B�= 1 Chron. 21 and “C�=1 Chron. 27)

1. When did God get angry?
A. Before the census
B. Because of the census
C. Because of the census

2. Who incited David to take the Census?
A. God
B. Satan
C. Nobody.

3. What human mandated the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Joab.

4. Who protested against the census?
A. Joab and his captains.
B. Joab.
C. Nobody, Joab did the census.

5. What was wrong with taking a census?
A. Nothing, God mandated it in Numbers 26:2
B. Nothing, God required it for taxes in Exodus 30:12
C. Nothing, They just did one in the preceding 23 verses!

6. How long did it take to do the census?
A. Nine months, 20 days.
B. Not recorded
C. Didn’t complete the census

7. Who all was counted?
A. All tribes
B. All tribes except Levi and Benjamin
C. Didn’t complete the census.

8. What was the number of the census?
A. 1.3 Million
B. 1.57 Million (with LESS tribes counted!)
C. Number was deliberately not recorded.

9. What stopped the census?
A. Done counting
B. Done counting
C. Wrath of God, census not completed.

10. Who took the blame for doing the census?
A. David
B. David
C. Not recorded, but apparently Joab.

11. What is the name of the Jebusite where the angel stopped?
A. Araunah
B. Ornan
C. Umm…What Jebusite?

12. What did the Jebusite do when he saw the Angel of Death?
A. Doesn’t say the Jebusite saw the Angel.
B. Just kept working, just kept working…
C. Excuse me? Jebusite? I do not see a Jebusite?

13. What did David buy from the Jebusite?
A. The Threshing floor and the oxen.
B. “the place�
C. Are you crazy? THERE IS NO JEBUSITE!

14. How much did David pay the Jebusite?
A. 50 shekels of silver
B. 600 shekels of gold
C. @#*&! There is no Jebusite!

And Now for the Essay portion of our quiz. In your apologetic, discuss the theological implications of God getting so angry He desires to kill 70,000 people, but His nature of Justice mandates someone has to sin first. Also discuss the punishment of David’s sin being 70,000 OTHER people have to die. Also discuss Satan’s limitation of “tempting� others unless God allows it. Or (in the alternative) discuss the ramifications of Satan and God working together to allow God to kill 70,000 people for David’s sin.

Amaleq13

Mageth asked the question that occurred to me so I'll just provide the relevant verses:

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." (Job 1:6, KJV)

"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD." (Job 2:1, KJV)

Magus55

They were samed the same way - Faith.

Harry Bosch

Do babies go to hell when they die? Do people go to hell who have never heard of Jesus?

Kosh

Is Sin a quantifiable substance? What is it's molecular makeup? Can it be measured? Can it be detected as a physical substance? Do you have any proof that it exists as "something" that can't go "somewhere"?

When "Satan" led the revolt in Heaven, was that a sin? Was he in Heaven when it happened? Wouldn't that have made Sin present in Heaven?

Is Sin stuck to some physical part of us that does with the sould to heaven?

Don't repeat eschatology, just answer the questions and justify your statements.