Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 09:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Minimalist

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More bad history. Alexander did not defeat Tyre with a navy.

Actually, Shesh, Alexander got some naval assistance from Sidon and Cyprus. Enough to protect his engineers building the mole.

I know that. But read carefully what I said. Alexander did not defeat Tyre with a navy.

Minimalist · 02-13-2008, 09:42 AM

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Umm, any thoughts on how long Nebby's siege on Jerusalem happened, or was that a non-event?

Josephus says 18 months but, of course, he was writing 600+ years after the event and was notoriously loose with numbers of any kind.

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Rubbish. Y'all have a lame argument on the Daniel thread that it was written between 167-164 to give encouragment to the Jews at the time who were in a war. By using this twisted logic Zekey prophesied that both Tyre and Jerusalem would fall and they both did.

Nope. Situation was different. When Daniel wrote, the Jews were already in the middle of the war. When Ezekiel wrote, the war hadn't happened yet.

If you don't know the history of these things, you really aren't qualified to offer an opinion. Ever consider just sitting back and learning for awhile before opening your mouth? :rolling:

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

I have far more of an "idea" than you do. What's more, my ideas don't twist the text or dead-end in a contradiction. Result? PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

How can you claim prophecy fails when you don't even understand the meaning of the prophecy, oh yeah, the prophecy is about the walls and streets of Tyre. . . I guess Isaiah 23 contradicts zekey, not.

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Now in that day Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years like the days of one king. At the end of seventy years it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the harlot:
16Take your harp, walk about the city,
O forgotten harlot;
Pluck the strings skillfully, sing many songs,
That you may be remembered.

17It will come about at the end of seventy years that the LORD will visit Tyre Then she will go back to her harlot's wages and will play the harlot with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth.

18Her gain and her harlot's wages will be set apart to the LORD; it will not be stored up or hoarded, but her gain will become sufficient food and choice attire for those who dwell in the presence of the LORD.

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Rubbish. Y'all have a lame argument on the Daniel thread that it was written between 167-164 to give encouragment to the Jews at the time who were in a war. By using this twisted logic Zekey prophesied that both Tyre and Jerusalem would fall and they both did.

Nope. Situation was different. When Daniel wrote, the Jews were already in the middle of the war. When Ezekiel wrote, the war hadn't happened yet.

LAME: Your claiming zekey wrote the prophey before the fact which I happen to agree with.

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

And here is a list of the Kings of Tyre. You will notice that after the year 573 they are all under to control of foreign powers,

Tyre was often under the nominal suzerainty of some other empire. That doesn't help you, though. Tyre retained a large degree of its independence, its wealth, its trade routes, and its prestige.

Morever, many of these princes were actually Tyrian royal family members who were installed and paid annual fees (tribute) to the empire, and little else.

The prophecy says the city would be DESTROYED and NEVER FOUND AGAIN, remember? Do you know what those words mean? Its' more than just the streets and buildings (which you fundies obsessed about; the skeptics only responded to your own obsessions). No, it means that the city of Tyre was going to be WIPED OFF THE MAP.

Instead, it was the Singapore (or the Hong Kong) of the ancient near east. A major metropolis that was making money hand over fist.

Result? PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 09:52 AM

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Originally Posted by Minimalist

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Umm, any thoughts on how long Nebby's siege on Jerusalem happened, or was that a non-event?

Josephus says 18 months but, of course, he was writing 600+ years after the event and was notoriously loose with numbers of any kind.

It would be nice to know the exact amount of time that Jerusalem was able to resist Nebby's army to see if the city of Tyre could also resist a similar siege. One would imagine that Tyre would be much more heavily fortefied than Jerusalem since Tyre was a commercial superpower. IIRC, Zekey comments that every shoulder was rubbed raw which would indicate there was a physical attack upon the city of Tyre not merely a blockade of sorts for 13 years.

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Nope. Situation was different. When Daniel wrote, the Jews were already in the middle of the war. When Ezekiel wrote, the war hadn't happened yet.

LAME: Your claiming zekey wrote the prophey before the fact which I happen to agree with.

Then you understand why the two situations are not the same.
Therefore your original objection (i.e., that the logic is the same as the 164 BCE dating for Daniel) is groundless.

Checkmate! :rolling:

arnoldo · 02-13-2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

And here is a list of the Kings of Tyre. You will notice that after the year 573 they are all under to control of foreign powers,

Tyre was often under the nominal suzerainty of some other empire. That doesn't help you, though. Tyre retained a large degree of its independence, its wealth, its trade routes, and its prestige.

Morever, many of these princes were actually Tyrian royal family members who were installed and paid annual fees (tribute) to the empire, and little else.

The prophecy says the city would be DESTROYED and NEVER FOUND AGAIN, remember? Do you know what those words mean? Its' more than just the streets and buildings (which you fundies obsessed about; the skeptics only responded to your own obsessions). No, it means that the city of Tyre was going to be WIPED OFF THE MAP.

Instead, it was the Singapore (or the Hong Kong) of the ancient near east. A major metropolis that was making money hand over fist.

Result? PROPHECY FAILS! :rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

LAME: Your supposed to argue that zekey wrote the prophecy after the fact, thus there was no prophecy.

Sheshonq · 02-13-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

How can you claim prophecy fails when you don't even understand the meaning of the prophecy, oh yeah, the prophecy is about the walls and streets of Tyre. . . I guess Isaiah 23 contradicts zekey, not.

Already shot you down on that deliberate mischaracterization, arnoldo. You lose!

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[B]Now blah

So? The bible contradicts itself. I have no problem admitting that. You're the only one who insists that it can't have any contradictions.

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