Freethought & Rationalism Archive

steamer · 12-08-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

"There is no "place" of torment, or even a "place" apart from God, because there is no "place" at all; you are outside of time and space. The "place" is actually a condition of either punishment ("hell") or paradise ("heaven") depending on how you experience the presence of God and His Uncreated Engergies.

If god insists on punishing me with his presence when he knows it is torment and there is no purpose to it then god his son and the holy spook are all buttheads. This god is indistinguishable from any other evil dictator. Of course all dictators are loved by their buttkissing inner-circle. Call yourself a freethinker all you like, shit is not shinola and this god is not less evil than one that would torment your children in hell for the huge crime of mere disbelief.

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-08-2005, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popeye1

If you can TELL me why there are so many errors in the New Testament and contradictions

"Bible contradictions and Bible difficulties are nothing new to Christian
apologists and non-Christian critics. The Bible is constantly under attack
and Christians need to know how to give an answer to everyone who asks
(1 Peter 3:15). Are there really any Bible contradictions?..."
http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm

Quote:

Originally Posted by popeye1

what makes you think this is the official book of God

From what the Bible says about itself.

The law, the is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple"
Psalm 19:7

Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven
Ps. 119:89

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 3:16

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away.
Matthew 24:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by popeye1

why someone has to believe by faith

Faith
Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=faith

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by popeye1

...and fear

Fear
Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fear

Why should God not be awed and revered?

Reverence
A feeling of profound awe and respect and often love; veneration.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Reverence

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-08-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steamer

If god insists on punishing me with his presence when he knows it is torment and there is no purpose to it then god his son and the holy spook are all buttheads.

God doesn't just love, God is love. It is your choice whether to enjoy or hate the presence of God's love.

Orthodox_Freethinker · 12-08-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flintknapper

Sins against the Holy Ghost, however, cannot be forgiven.

Yes. What Jesus asserted is that those who accuse His miracles of being the product of Satan have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit and will not be forgiven either in this world nor the world to come. However, this does not rule out an intermediate state in which blasphemers against the Holy Spirit can be forgiven.

Clivedurdle · 12-08-2005, 02:19 PM

OF, I would be very interested in your comments about the Apostolic statements of faith I posted earlier - what do you agree with and disagree with there?

steamer · 12-08-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox_Freethinker

God doesn't just love, God is love. It is your choice whether to enjoy or hate the presence of God's love.

Does god love me now? If so then his love is no torment, if not then it is his presence which you claim will cause the torment. If he understands this, but still forces this torment on me, how am I at fault because I cannot get away? If he chooses to torment me in this manner without cause then the evil is his, not mine. I know it is comforting to you to think your god is not a monster, but this god of yours is as hideous as any Satan you'd imagine.

Ryzo · 12-08-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox Freethinker

Quote:

:
Originally Posted by popeye1
what makes you think this is the official book of God

From what the Bible says about itself.

The law, the is perfect, converting the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple"
Psalm 19:7

Forever, O LORD, Your word is settled in heaven
Ps. 119:89

All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 3:16

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away.
Matthew 24:35

Circular logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Your idea that the Father is angy and vengeful and the Son pleads for forgiveness would be rank heresy to the Catholic Church. They are of the same substance.

If they're of the same substance then why do they have different roles? Why did the Son die on the cross and not the Father? Why am I always being told Jesus saves, never the Father or the Holy Spirit saves?

Quote:

Christians believe it is the Holy Spirit who leads people to faith in Jesus and the one who gives them the ability to lead a Christian life. The Spirit dwells inside every true Christian, each one's body being His temple (First Epistle to the Corinthians 3:16). He is depicted as a 'Counsellor' or 'Helper' (paracletus in Latin, derived from Greek), guiding them in the way of the truth. The Spirit's action in one's life is believed to produce positive results, known as the Fruit of the Spirit. The Spirit is also believed to give gifts (i.e. abilities) to Christians. These may include the charismatic gifts such as prophecy, tongues, healing, and knowledge.

So is the holy spirit then the non-corpereal form of God on earth?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orthodox Freethinker

"There is no "place" of torment, or even a "place" apart from God, because there is no "place" at all; you are outside of time and space. The "place" is actually a condition of either punishment ("hell") or paradise ("heaven") depending on how you experience the presence of God and His Uncreated Engergies.

Consider a person who hates God, and anything to do with religion, and has done nothing but pursued his own self-centered desires all his life. It would be far more terrifying, and painful, to spend eternity in the fiery embrace of God's almighty and divine love with no escape, than to be far from Him.

Experiencing God's presence and His in-filling transforming Energies in glory or in torment, as Paradise or as Punishment, is the heaven and hell of the Bible. Not something God did to us, but rather something we did to ourselves. God unconditionally pours out His love on all, WHETHER WE WANT IT OR NOT, whether we are ready for it or not, when we enter the afterlife. This is why the Gospel or "good news" of Jesus Christ should be shared with all people, of all nations, in all tongues. For there is nothing to fear from God's perfect love, since love casts out all fear.

Interesting. So according to you hell isn't for eternity because our preceptions can change. Also it shouldn't matter how you lived your life, or your faith because ultimately "heaven" and "hell" are only the result of your perception of God. As long as one views God as loving it doesn't matter what they do to anyone else because it's only their perception that determines their fate in the afterlife. Interesting, so according to you, Christians basically have a license to sin because actions don't determine where one goes in the afterlife, correct?

NOGO · 12-08-2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Orthodox UnFreethinker
Jesus did not 'die for our sins' given that He could already forgive sin before the crucixion but died in order to save us from death, a gift which you may either accept or reject.

The next time you ask a question of Christian theology, please make sure to research some Christian theology beforehand. If that doesn't answer your question then bring it before a believer.

You are in direct contradiction with Paul and scriptures.

1 Corintians 15:3
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Even after 2000 years of preaching Christians are still confused.
I am not surprized in the least.

richard2 · 12-08-2005, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OF

Jesus did not 'die for our sins' given that He could already forgive sin before the crucixion but died in order to save us from death, a gift which you may either accept or reject.

Whoa... Jesus didn't die for your sins? You are not in the realm of orthodoxy at all.

But another question: God couldn't save us from death without killing himself? Why? I thought He was omnipotent. Heck, if he can forgive sin without killing himself, I'm sure he could save us from death?

John A. Broussard · 12-08-2005, 03:15 PM

You must have missed this earlier post of mine so I'm repeating it in the hopes of receiving an answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helpmabob
The Holy Spirit is many things, as mentioned above, but additionally it is a guarantee to a christian that he / she will be redeemed: And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. [Ephesians 4:30]

Phew!

Thanks for the clarification.

I hadn't realized that I was sealed by the Holy Spirit of God for the day of redemption.

Can you point out some of the many other things that the Holy Spirit is?

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12-08-2005, 02:19 PM	#25
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	OF, I would be very interested in your comments about the Apostolic statements of faith I posted earlier - what do you agree with and disagree with there?

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