DCHindley

Vork,

I don't have a lot of time before I have to turn myself to work, but the evidence you cited seems to suggest to me that Hippolytus is not here refering to Greeks picking up ideas from essenes but that Greek philosophers picked up ideas from Jewish teachers (expounding on the books of the Law).

A And this locality the Greeks were acquainted with by hearsay, and called it Isles of the Blessed. And there are other tenets of these which many of the Greeks have appropriated, and thus have from time to time formed their own opinions.

In Part A Hippolytus appears to make the claim that the Greeks have appropriated tenets of Essene/Jewish thought, though that's not completely clear. Josephus was ever eager to prove the antiquity of the Jews and their greatness. It strikes me that this is a very Josephean claim. Yet this claim is not found in the Josephean "original".

What is to prevent one from reading "And there are other tenets of these [type] which many of the Greeks have appropriated [from the Jews], and thus have from time to time formed their own opinions"? I think you would need to investigate that pericope from Hippolytus in the original Greek to determine whether the referant is Essenes or Moses/Jewish teachers.

DCH

DCHindley

I ended up calling in sick (stomach problems) and conjured up the folowing analysis.

First here is what Josephus says:

Josephus, Jewish War, Book 2:	Da Greek
153 but [when tortured by the Romans during the Jewish War] they smiled in their very pains, and laughed those to scorn who inflicted the torments upon them, and resigned up their souls with great alacrity, as expecting to receive them again.	[153 μειδιῶντες δὲ ἐν ταῖς ἀλγηδόσιν καὶ κατειρωνευόμενοι τῶν τὰς βασάνους προσφερόντων εὔθυμοι τὰς ψυχὰς ἠφίεσαν ὡς πάλιν κομιούμενοι]
154a For their [Essene] doctrine [about souls] is this:--That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue forever;	[154a Καὶ γὰρ ἔρρωται παρ᾽ αὐτοῖς ἥδε ἡ δόξα φθαρτὰ μὲν εἶναι τὰ σώματα καὶ τὴν ὕλην οὐ μόνιμον αὐτῶν τὰς δὲ ψυχὰς ἀθανάτους]
154b and that they come out of the most subtle air, and are united to their bodies as in prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement;	[154b ἀεὶ διαμένειν καὶ συμπλέκεσθαι μὲν ἐκ τοῦ λεπτοτάτου φοιτώσας αἰθέρος ὥσπερ εἱρκταῖς τοῖς σώμασιν ἴυγγί τινι φυσικῇ κατασπωμένας]
155a but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward.	[155a ἐπειδὰν δὲ ἀνεθῶσι τῶν κατὰ σάρκα δεσμῶν οἷα δὴ μακρᾶς δουλείας ἀπηλλαγμένας τότε χαίρειν καὶ μετεώρους φέρεσθαι]
155b And this is like the opinion of the Greeks, that good souls [after death] have their habitations beyond the ocean, in a region that is neither oppressed with storms of rain, or snow, or with intense heat, but that this place is such as is refreshed by the gentle breezes of a west wind, that is perpetually blowing from the ocean; while they allot to bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never ceasing punishments.	[155b καὶ ταῖς μὲν ἀγαθαῖς ὁμοδοξοῦντες παισὶν Ἑλλήνων ἀποφαίνονται τὴν ὑπὲρ ὠκεανὸν δίαιταν ἀποκεῖσθαι καὶ χῶρον οὔτε ὄμβροις οὔτε νιφετοῖς οὔτε καύμασι βαρυνόμενον ἀλλ᾽ ὃν ἐξ ὠκεανοῦ πραῢς ἀεὶ ζέφυρος ἐπιπνέων ἀναψύχει ταῖς δὲ φαύλαις ζοφώδη καὶ χειμέριον ἀφορίζονται μυχὸν γέμοντα τιμωριῶν ἀδιαλείπτων]
156a And indeed the Greeks seem to me to have followed the same notion, when they allot the islands of the blessed to their brave men, whom they call heroes and demigods;	[156a δοκοῦσι δέ μοι κατὰ τὴν αὐτὴν ἔννοιαν Ἕλληνες τοῖς τε ἀνδρείοις αὐτῶν οὓς ἥρωας καὶ ἡμιθέους καλοῦσιν τὰς μακάρων νήσους ἀνατεθεικέναι]
156b and to the souls of the wicked, the region of the ungodly, in Hades, where their fables relate that certain persons, such as Sisyphus, and Tantalus, and Ixion, and Tityus, are punished; which is built on this first supposition, that souls are immortal; and from this are those exhortations to virtue and exhortations from wickedness collected;	[156b ταῖς δὲ τῶν πονηρῶν ψυχαῖς καθ᾽ ᾅδου τὸν ἀσεβῶν χῶρον ἔνθα καὶ κολαζομένους τινὰς μυθολογοῦσιν Σισύφους καὶ Ταντάλους Ἰξίονάς τε καὶ Τιτυούς πρῶτον μὲν ἀιδίους ὑφιστάμενοι τὰς ψυχάς ἔπειτα εἰς προτροπὴν ἀρετῆς καὶ κακίας ἀποτροπήν]
157 whereby good men are bettered in the conduct of their life, by the hope they have of reward after their death, and whereby the vehement inclinations of bad men to vice are restrained, by the fear and expectation they are in, that although they should lie concealed in this life, they should suffer immortal punishment after their death.	[157 τούς τε γὰρ ἀγαθοὺς γίνεσθαι κατὰ τὸν βίον ἀμείνους ἐλπίδι τιμῆς καὶ μετὰ τὴν τελευτήν τῶν τε κακῶν ἐμποδίζεσθαι τὰς ὁρμὰς δέει προσδοκώντων εἰ καὶ λάθοιεν ἐν τῷ ζῆν μετὰ τὴν διάλυσιν ἀθάνατον τιμωρίαν ὑφέξειν]

I've highlighted Josephus' account of Essene beliefs about the afterlife in Green. I've highlighted the Greek traditions about the afterlife, which Josephus contrasts them to, in Red. Josephus' own opinion about where the Greek philosophers stole their philosophical ideas from are in Blue.

Hippolytus says something similar, but also quite different, where he says:

Hippolytus, Book IX, Chapter XXII. [136] Belief of the Esseni in the Resurrection; Their System a Suggestive One.	Da Greek. Origenes (Hippolytus) Philosophumena (Emmanuel Miller, 1851)
Now the doctrine of the resurrection has also derived support among these [Essenes]; for they acknowledge both that the flesh will rise again, and that it will be immortal, in the same manner as the soul is already imperishable.	[errwtai (being strong) de (but) par (according to) autois (them) kai (also) o (the) ths (the) anastasews (resurrection) loyos; (word) omologousi (they promise) gar (for) kai (also) thn (the) sarka (flesh) anasthsesqai (to futerely rise up) kai (and) esesqai (to reside) aqanaton, (immortal) on (that) tropon (manner) hdh (already) aqanatos (immortal) estin (is) h (the) yuch (soul),]
And they maintain that the soul, when separated in the present life, (departs) into one place, which is well ventilated and lightsome, where, they say, it rests until judgment.	[hn (which) χωρισθεῖσαν (place) nun (now) estin (it is) eis (into) ena (one) cwron (northwest wind) εὔπνουν (sweet smelling) kai (and) fwteinon (full of light) anapauesqai (where resting) ews (until) krisews (judgement), on (whom) cwron (northwest wind [blew])]
And this locality the Greeks were acquainted with by hearsay, and called it “Isles of the Blessed.”	[ellhnes (Greeks) akousantes (having heard [from the Jews]) makarwn (blessed) nhsous (islands) wnomasan (they named)]
And there are other tenets of these which many of the Greeks have appropriated, and thus have from time to time formed their own opinions.	[alla (but) kai (also) hetera (other ones) toutwn (these) dogmata (teachings) polloi (many) twn (the) ellhnwn (Greeks) σφετερισάμενοι (userp), idias (as their own) doxas (glorious) sunesthsanto (introductions)]
For the disciplinary system in regard of the Divinity, according to these (Jewish sects), is of greater antiquity than that of all nations.
And so it is that the proof is at hand, that all those (Greeks) who [137] ventured to make assertions concerning God, or concerning the creation of existing things, derived their principles from no other source than from Jewish legislation.
And among these may be particularized Pythagoras especially, and the Stoics, who derived (their systems) while resident among the Egyptians, by having become disciples of these Jews.
Now they affirm that there will be both a judgment and a conflagration of the universe, and that the wicked will be eternally punished.
And among them is cultivated the practice of prophecy, and the prediction of future events.

Again, I've highlighted Hyppolytus' account of Essene beliefs about the afterlife in Green. I've highlighted the Greek traditions about the afterlife, which Hyppolytus likewise seems to contrast them to, in Red. Hippolytus' own opinion about where the Greek philosophers stole their philosophical ideas from are in Blue.

When one compares apples (Josephus) with oranges (Hippolytus), one gets this fruit salad:

Josephus	Hippolytus
154a For their [Essene] doctrine [about souls] is this:--That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue forever; 154b and that they come out of the most subtle air, and are united to their bodies as in prisons, into which they are drawn by a certain natural enticement;	Now the doctrine of the resurrection has also derived support among these [Essenes]; for they acknowledge both that the flesh will rise again, and that it will be immortal, in the same manner as the soul is already imperishable.
155a but that when they are set free from the bonds of the flesh, they then, as released from a long bondage, rejoice and mount upward.	And they maintain that the soul, when separated in the present life, (departs) into one place,
155b And this is like the opinion of the Greeks, that good souls have their habitations beyond the ocean, in a region that is neither oppressed with storms of rain, or snow, or with intense heat, but that this place is such as is refreshed by the gentle breezes of a west wind, that is perpetually blowing from the ocean; …	which is well ventilated and lightsome, where, they say, it [the soul] rests until judgment. [Hippolytus attributes to the Essenes lore about the afterlife that Josephus attributed to the Greeks, in other words, conflates the two accounts]
155b … while they allot to bad souls a dark and tempestuous den, full of never ceasing punishments.	Now they affirm that there will be both a judgment and a conflagration of the universe, and that the wicked will be eternally punished.
Josephus, War 1.75; Ant 3.311 & 371ff	And among them is cultivated the practice of prophecy, and the prediction of future events.

Now, as the adage goes, "feed a cold and starve a fever," and I think I have a cold ... ummmm well, time to eat! :eating_popcorn:

DCH

DCHindley

DCH,

You ignorant fool!

Surly you could have pointed out that much of what Hippolytus says the Essenes believe and do are mined from various places in Josephus's writings, eh, not just JW book 2?

For the disciplinary system in regard of the Divinity, according to these (Jewish sects), is of greater antiquity than that of all nations.	Josephus Contra Apion 2.167 Moreover, he [Moses] represented God as unbegotten, and immutable, through all eternity, superior to all mortal conceptions in pulchritude; and, though known to us by his power, yet unknown to us as to his essence.
And so it is that the proof is at hand, that all those (Greeks) who [137] ventured to make assertions concerning God, or concerning the creation of existing things, derived their principles from no other source than from Jewish legislation.	168a I do not now [attempt to] explain how these notions of God are [also] the sentiments of the wisest among the Greeks, and how they were taught them [the Greek philosophers] upon the principles that he [Moses] afforded them.
And among these may be particularized Pythagoras especially, and the Stoics, who derived (their systems) while resident among the Egyptians, by having become disciples of these Jews.	168b However, they [the Greek philosophers] testify, with great assurance, that these notions are just, and agreeable to the nature of God, and to his majesty; for Pythagoras, and Anaxagoras, and Plato, and the Stoic philosophers that succeeded them, and almost all the rest, are of the same sentiments, and had the same notions of the nature of God [as those expressed by Moses];
Now they affirm that there will be both (1) a judgment and (2) a conflagration of the universe, and that the wicked will be eternally punished.	[FWIW, (1) is actually a restatement of Hippolytus' earlier statement that "[a good soul] rests until judgment", although note that Josephus speaks noting about a judgement at all, (2) This is an Atomist doctrine, I believe, but not anywhere stated in Josephus I don't think, and (3) is a restatement of Josephus' opinion about the Greek doctrines: JW 2:155b & the end of 157.
And among them is cultivated the practice of prophecy, and the prediction of future events.	Josephus, War 1.75; Ant 3.311 & 371ff

How are we to carry on our endless arguing about semantics and soap box expositions if we continue to present facts like these? I condemn you solomnly to Tartarus, where your soul will rot in perpetual torture without judgement (the eternal version of Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib all rolled into one).

Your evil twin, Skippy! :devil2:

Vorkosigan

Why yes, I noted that in my post, DCH. But my point was slightly different -- Hippolytus' approach resembles Josephus because he got it ALL from Josephus' piece on the Essenes. In the areas where he differs from Josephus piece on the Essenes it is not because he borrowed from another Josephean writing but because an editor went in and removed things from Josephus. In a couple of places the seams are obvious, in other places the editor has de-Christianized Josephus' original discussion, which Hippolytus still preserves.

Vorkosigan

DCHindley

I'm sorry Vork,

That was my evil twin Skippy, not me who was talking, and he was talking to me, his good twin, DCH.

I, er - "we", wanted to emphasize that Hippolytus was drawing from several sources, and had conflated Josephus' description of the Essenes (who very Platonic like wished their soul to be free of the body) with his description of the Greeks, at least those who followed the Elysian mysteries, who he says believed that the soul of the heroes and most valiant, went to the Isles of the Blessed after death, to live forevermore in a better place, and vice versa for the wicked. It is not specifically stated that the Essenes believed in a seperate afterlife for the good and wicked, although this may have been implied.

I would say that it is far more likely that Hippolytus was mining all of Josephus' works, not just mirroring War book 2, and throws in points from Origen's Against Celsus.

DCH.

Vorkosigan

DCH, our current Josephus has Josephus in his description of the Essenes advocating a position he takes nowhere else -- that Greek thought came from the Greeks. Here are two passages:

"For the base, on the other hand, they separate off a murky, stormy recess filled with unending retributions. It was according to the same notion that the Greeks appear to me to have laid on the Islands of the Blessed for their most courageous men, whom they call heroes and demi-gods, and for the souls of the worthless the region of the impious in Hades, in which connection they tell tales about the punishments of certain men—Sisyphuses and Tantaluses, Ixions and Tityuses—establishing in the first place the [notion of] eternal souls and, on that basis, persuasion toward virtue and dissuasion from vice."

"For the disciplinary system in regard of the Divinity, according to these (Jewish sects), is of greater antiquity than that of all nations. And so it is that the proof is at hand, that all those (Greeks) who ventured to make assertions concerning God, or concerning the creation of existing things, derived their principles from no other source than from Jewish legislation. And among these may be particularized Pythagoras especially, and the Stoics, who derived (their systems) while resident among the Egyptians, by having become disciples of these Jews."

Clearly the second one is Josephean. But it is the first one we find in Josephus! Your position is quite strange -- it argues that after faithfully following Josephus description of the Essenes topic by topic, point by point, sometimes word by word, Hippolytus gets to this passage on the Greeks and says to himself "Sheesh, that ain't like the Josephus I know" and then goes over to Contra Apion to pick up a Josephean passage, then returns to his point by point tracking of Josephus for the remainder of the text. I don't think this position of yours makes any sense, especially in light of the textual differences that make J's Essenes less Christian compared to the later Hippolytus.

The higher probability position is that H continued right through capturing J point by point, including in areas where the passages are now different, and then a later editor removed them from Josephus.

Vorkosigan

aa5874

The available evidence does NOT allow you to state with any certainty that "an editor went in and removed things from Josephus.

It is just not logical at all that the writings of Josephus were De-Christianized and simultaneously Christianized.

It should be obvious that if non-apologetic sources were being manipulated as you seem to suggest then the present non-apologetic sources would be expected to have far more interpolations about Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

mountainman

Well done Vorkosigan.

My only comment, which you may think to be tangential to your post, is that the other source for the essenes - Philo - is, according to articles I have read, recognised also to be "Christianized". The early christian forgery mill appears insidiously coordinated. They obviously had the sources before them and they obviously controlled their preservation.

I look forward to other posts.

maryhelena

Now, now, Pete.....

Why does everyone want to run away from Josephus??

Blaming the Christians is not going to open up the road forward here - the road to early Christian origins. It's Josephus - and Philo - that need to be put in the dock. These two writers, whoever they really were, are the pivotal figures writing during a time period relevant to early Christian origins. The continual desire to give them both a clean slate and charge others with tampering is, surely, fundamentally flawed. It could well be a case here of the dog that did not bark...

andrewcriddle

The passage is translated by Steve Mason as follows josephus on the essenes If there has been some editing of the text of Josephus, (about which I am unsure), then the simplest possibility is that the bolded passage is a gloss and that the original read I.E. The original Josephus presented a very Greek version of the Essenes' position on the afterlife and then drew an explicit comparison with Greek views. The gloss by emphasising the Greek parallels at the beginning has confused the flow of thought.

Andrew Criddle