Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ben C Smith · 03-10-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Could be?
The English language translations use grave, tomb, and sepulchre, interchangeably for three different Greek words.
I wonder why the translators were not consistent in using the same English words for the same Greek words.

The point is that the verb θαπτω is used for placement in a tomb.

I do not claim to know the logic of the translators. But when I prepared my own translation of the gospel of Peter several years ago for my own use I tried to be consistent.

What, BTW, are the three Greek words you have in mind? Two come to mind immediately, but a third does not.

Ben.

Toto · 03-10-2008, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

I've heard this claim before, but when I Google "arimathea 'best disciple,'" I get primarily hits at atheist Web sites--including threads here at IIDB which refer to Richard's statement. Is there any scholarly reference work which can verify this claim?

It was evidently an off hand comment by Richard Carrier to Peter Kirby, which is not found in his own writings. It might be worth emailing Carrier to see if he still thinks that is a possibility.

stuart shepherd · 03-10-2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Could be?
The English language translations use grave, tomb, and sepulchre, interchangeably for three different Greek words.
I wonder why the translators were not consistent in using the same English words for the same Greek words.

The point is that the verb θαπτω is used for placement in a tomb.

I do not claim to know the logic of the translators. But when I prepared my own translation of the gospel of Peter several years ago for my own use I tried to be consistent.

What, BTW, are the three Greek words you have in mind? Two come to mind immediately, but a third does not.

Ben.

# 3418, #3419, #5028 Strong's numbers

Stuart Shepherd

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-10-2008, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

I've heard this claim before, but when I Google "arimathea 'best disciple,'" I get primarily hits at atheist Web sites--including threads here at IIDB which refer to Richard's statement. Is there any scholarly reference work which can verify this claim?

No, there's not. And why would there be? There is no Greek prefix ἀρι. And there is no such word as "matheia" in Greek. And if there were a Greek word meaning "disciple town", it wouldn't be "matheia".

Besides that the word that appears in our Gospels as a "surname" for Joseph is a transliteration into Greek of the letters of a Hebrew name. So telling us what its supposed to mean in Greek based upon its alleged (but none existent) "Greek" components displays ignorance of both Greek and Hebrew on a number of levels.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-10-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

I've heard this claim before, but when I Google "arimathea 'best disciple,'" I get primarily hits at atheist Web sites--including threads here at IIDB which refer to Richard's statement. Is there any scholarly reference work which can verify this claim?

It was evidently an off hand comment by Richard Carrier to Peter Kirby, which is not found in his own writings. It might be worth emailing Carrier to see if he still thinks that is a possibility.

Still? Assuming he has not been misrepresented, the real question is why RC ever thought it was a possibility at all.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-10-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Could be?
The English language translations use grave, tomb, and sepulchre, interchangeably for three different Greek words.
I wonder why the translators were not consistent in using the same English words for the same Greek words.

The point is that the verb θαπτω is used for placement in a tomb.

Here's the BDAG entry:

Quote:

θάπτω impf. ἔθαπτον; 1 aor. ἔθαψα; 2 aor. pass. ἐτάφην (Hom.+; inscr., pap., LXX; En. 22, 10; Joseph., Test. 12 Patr.) bury τινά someone (Jos., Ant. 4, 78)Mt 8:21f; 14:12; Lk 9:59f (νεκρός 2b); Ac 5:9; GP 2:5. τὶ someth. τὸ σῶμα 6:23. W. obj. acc. to be supplied Ac 5:6, 10 (cf. Polyb. 12, 26, 7 τοὺς πρεσβυτ�*ρους ὑπὸ τῶν ν�*ων θάπτεσθαι). Pass. (Jos., Ant. 4, 202)Lk 16:22; Ac 2:29; 1 Cor 15:4. M-M. B. 291f.*

Arndt, W., Gingrich, F. W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (1996, c1979). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature : A translation and adaption of the fourth revised and augmented edition of Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Worterbuch zu den Schrift en des Neuen Testaments und der ubrigen urchristlichen Literatur (351). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-10-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

The point is that the verb θαπτω is used for placement in a tomb.

I do not claim to know the logic of the translators. But when I prepared my own translation of the gospel of Peter several years ago for my own use I tried to be consistent.

What, BTW, are the three Greek words you have in mind? Two come to mind immediately, but a third does not.

Ben.

# 3418, #3419, #5028 Strong's numbers

You do realize, don't you, that despite its use of the word "dictionary, Strongs is no such thing. It's definitions are not definitions at all -- they are simply a listing of what the KJV translators though was the best 1611 English equivalent to a given Greek or Hebrew word in its context.

And why did you not produce the actual words themselves? Are you Greekless?

FWIW Here are the Strong entries:

3418. μνη̂μα mnēma, mnay´-mah; from 3415; a memorial, i.e. sepulchral monument (burial-place):— grave, sepulchre, tomb.

3419. μνημει̂ον mnēmĕiŏn, mnay-mi´-on; from 3420; a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment):— grave, sepulchre, tomb.

5028. τάφος taphŏs, taf´-os; masc. from 2290; a grave (the place of interment):— sepulchre, tomb.

And as to why the translators were not consistent in using the same English words for the same Greek words, it's because (see below) the words have a larger semantic range than you are apparently aware of, despite your use of Strongs.

Jeffrey

*****

Quote:

μνῆμα, ατος, τό lit. a ‘sign of remembrance’, esp. for the dead (Hom.+), then gener. grave, tomb (Hdt., Pla. et al.; Dit., Syll.3 1221; 1237, 3; BGU 1024 IV, 23; LXX, Philo; Jos., Ant. 7, 19; 8, 240) Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1 (μνημεῖον P75 et al.); Ac 2:29 (David’s μ. Jos., Ant. 7, 393); GP 8:30-2; 11:44; 12:50, 52. κατατιθ�*ναι ἐν μ. lay in a tomb Mk 15:46; cf. Ac 7:16. τιθ�*ναι ἐν μ. λαξευτῷ lay in a rock-hewn tomb Lk 23:53. τιθ�*ναι εἰς μνῆμα Rv 11:9 (for the idea s. Jos., Bell. 4, 317). Dwelling-place of demoniacs Mk 5:3, 5; Lk 8:27. M-M.*

μνημει̂ον, ου, τό lit. ‘token of remembrance’ (Pind.+; Philo, Joseph.), esp. for the dead (Eur., Iph. T. 702; 821; Thu. 1, 138, 5; X., Hell. 2, 4, 17; 3, 2, 15; Pla., Rep. 3 p. 414a).

1. monument, memorial (cf. Jos., Ant. 5, 119μν. καὶ τάφος): οἰκοδομεῖτε τ. μνημεῖα τῶν προφητῶν Lk 11:47 (JoachJeremias, Heiligengräber in Jesu Umwelt ’58) is prob. to be understood in this sense (for μ. οἰκοδομεῖν cf. Jos., Ant. 13, 211).But μ. in our lit. usu. has the sense

2. grave, tomb (Dit., Syll.3 1229, 4; 1232; 1234; 1242; 1244; PFlor. 9, 10; Gen 23:6, 9; Is 22:16 al.; Jos., Ant. 1, 237; 18, 108); of tombs in caves, etc. (s. PThomsen, Grab: Reallex. d. Vorgesch. IV 2, 473ff), into which a person can enter (Mk 16:5; J 20:6) Mt 23:29; 27:52f (JBlinzler, ThGl 35, ’43, 91-3.—Diod. S. 13, 86, 3: when the Carthaginians besieging Acragas destroyed some tombs lying outside the walls, διὰ νυκτὸς εἴδωλα [ghosts] φαίνεσθαι τῶν τετελευτηκότων.—On the earthquake that opens the graves and frees those inside s. Ps.-Ael. Aristid. 25, 20f K.=43 p. 804 D.: μνήματα ἀνερρήγνυτο. . . τὰ μνήματα ἀνερρίπτει τοὺς κειμ�*νους. EFascher, Die Auferweckung der Heiligen Mt 27:51-53, ’51), 60b; 28:8; Mk 15:46; 16:2 v.l., 3, 5, 8; Lk 23:55; 24:1 v.l. P75 et al., 2, 9, 12, 22, 24; J 11:17, 31 (Aesop, Fab. 109 H. γυνή ἀπιοῦσα πρὸς τὸ μνημεῖον ἐθρήνει), 38; 12:17; 19:42; 20:1-4, 6, 8, 11a, b; GP 9:34; 12:51, 53 (lit. on the Holy Sepulcher: RGG2 III 92; also FMBraun, La Sépulture de Jésu ’37; RHSmith, The Tomb of Jesus, Biblical Archaeologist 30, ’67, 74-90). τιθ�*ναι εἰς μ. place in the tomb Ac 13:29. Also τιθ�*ναι ἐν τῷ μ. Mt 27:60a; Mk 6:29. μ. καινόν Mt 27:60a; J 19:41; οἱ ἐν τοῖς μ. those who are in their tombs 5:28. The haunt of demoniacs Mt 8:28; Mk 5:2 (acc. to Diog. L. 9, 38 Democritus sought solitude among the graves). Graves were somet. not recognizable as such fr. their outward appearance Lk 11:44; s. ἄδηλος 1. M-M.*

τάφος, ου, ὁ (in Hom.=‘funeral rites’) grave, tomb (Hes. +; inscr., pap., LXX; Philo, Mos. 2, 291; Jos., Ant. 9, 183; 14, 284).

1. lit. Mt 27:61, 64, 66; 28:1 (EBickermann, Das leere Grab: ZNW 23, ’24, 281-92; Guillaume Baldensperger, Le tombeau vide: RHPhr 12, ’32, 413-33; 13, ’33, 105-44; 14, ’34, 97-125; ChMasson, Le tomb. v.: RThPh 32, ’44, 161-74; HvCampenhausen, D. Ablauf der Osterereignisse u. das leere Grab ’52; JSKennard, Jr., The Burial of Jesus: JBL 74, ’55, 227-38; WNauck, ZNW 47, ’56, 243-67; Finegan s.v. Ἰούδας 6; s. also ἀνάστασις 2, end and μνημεῖον 2.—An external parallel to the motif of the empty τάφος in Charito 3, 3, 1-4.—Phlegon: 257 fgm. 36, 1, 9 Jac.: in order to ascertain whether a resurrection from the dead had actually occurred, ὁ τάφος is opened and entered to see πότερον εἴη τὸ σῶμα ἐπὶ τῆς κλίνης ἤ κενὸν τόπον εὑρήσομεν); GP 6:24; 8:31; 9:36f; 10:39; 11:45; 13:55. οἱ τάφοι τῶν προφητῶν Mt 23:29 (on the cult of graves and veneration of holy men among the Jews s. Billerb. I 937f; JoachJeremias, Heiligengräber in Jesu Umwelt ’58). On τάφοι κεκονιαμ�*νοι vs. 27; GNaass 6, cf. κονιάω. In the apocryphal gospel τάφ. κεκ. is used metaphorically. Likew. τάφοι νεκρῶν, ἐφʼ οἷς γ�*γραπται μόνον ὀνόματα ἀνθρώπων graves of the dead, on which only the names of men are inscribed IPhld 6:1. ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τάφῳ come to the grave 1 Cl 56:15 (Job 5:26).

2. fig., of the dark place fr. which God introduces us into the world at birth 1 Cl 38:3. Of the wild animals who are to be Ignatius’ grave ἵνα μοι τάφος γ�*νωνται (i.e. τὰ θηρία) IRo 4:2 (Gorgias in �*ερὶ ὕψους 3, 2 calls vultures ἔμψυχοι τάφοι). Of sinful men τάφος ἀνεῳγμ�*νος ὁ λάρυγξ (s. ἀνοίγω 1b and cf. Artem. 1, 80 p. 80, 27 τὸ στόμα τάφῳ ἔοικε) Ro 3:13 (Ps 5:10; 13:3). M-M. B. 294.*

Arndt, W., Gingrich, F. W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (1996, c1979). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature : A translation and adaption of the fourth revised and augmented edition of Walter Bauer's Griechisch-deutsches Worterbuch zu den Schrift en des Neuen Testaments und der ubrigen urchristlichen Literatur (806). Chicago: University of Chicago Press

.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-10-2008, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuart shepherd

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Joseph the son of Arimathea would be Joseph ben Arimathea. But Arimathea is not known to be a Jewish name in any case.

There is speculation of all sorts:

link

"best disciple town" ...that certainly is staggering.
IMO the more carefully one examines the "Jesus story" the more it looks like fiction.

That may be the case. But the "analysis" of Arimathea presented here does not come anywhere close to being a "careful examination" of the Jesus story.

And that you seems to be incapable of seeing this doesn't say much for the validity of your judgement about what things do and do not look like

Jeffrey

Toto · 03-10-2008, 04:45 PM

Please cut out the personal comments.

Thank you

Toto

spin · 03-10-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

I might be laughed at for my ignorance, but is it possible that Joseph of Arimathaea referred to Joseph's father, name of Arimathaea?

Joseph the son of Arimathea would be Joseph ben Arimathea. But Arimathea is not known to be a Jewish name in any case.

There is speculation of all sorts:

link

Quote:

Concerning the first, there is a plausible significance to the name Arimathea. Richard Carrier speculates, "Is the word a pun on 'best disciple,' ari[stos] mathe[tes]? Matheia means 'disciple town' in Greek; Ari- is a common prefix for superiority."[99] Since commentators have seen the burial by the outsider Joseph of Arimathea as a contrast to the failure of the disciples and intimates of Jesus, the coincidence that Arimathea can be read as "best disciple town" is staggering.

Obviously it's been rendered into Greek so it has undergone some damage, but the name is clear: when you remove the Greek toponymic accretions, you end up with arimaQ, which you can compare with the LXX arhmwQ in Jos 20:8, a transliteration of R)MWT, which is usually rendered into English as Ramoth. This is a plural of Ramah, which indicates "height". It is frequent in the US to have generic parts of towns called "the heights". The most famous heights were those in Gilead, referred to in Josh 20:8 and various other places. Considering that high places were used as places of worship in Israel, that many places were called Ramoth is not surprising. The many forms of this name involve whether it is singular or plural in Hebrew, then the various attempts at people using Greek to render the name with and without article.

The speculation based on "ari[stos] mathe[tes]" seems farcical, unless of course the source supplies sufficient examples of that sort of terminological development, ie from a series of abbreviations. One could speculate, if one were wanton, that Arimathea was derived from ariQmos ("number") with a simple metathesis (arimaQos) plus an indication of a toponym (arimaQaia); or that it was derived from a restaurant with a bad reputation that was there, considering that aristaw means to dine, so you eat and learn.

If this silliness is derived from Carrier I'd give him an E for effort. A Hebrew origin based on Ramoth is much more credible. (This doesn't stop all sorts of weird and wacky secondary justifications as were found in the times. Many things were overdetermined. However, I don't think we would have enough to go on, with the data available, so we should stick to the probable primary significance.)

spin

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03-10-2008, 04:45 PM	#69
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Please cut out the personal comments. Thank you Toto

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