Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jayrok · 07-22-2006, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Again, you are over analyzing scripture like it's going to be word for word error free. The book is written by man...not Got. It did not fall from the sky. You must read it in order to see what the author is trying to portray. In this case the author is portraying that Jesus didn't deceive anyone with his teachings. What he taught to his disciples he taught to the world. There was not trickery to undermine the high priest.

Over analyzing? I simply posted what it reads. There is no need for "analyzing".

So you are saying Jesus never said this? The author put these words into Jesus' mouth to appease his interrogators? What other things did these human authors put into characters' mouths? I bet the resurrection story is also a fabrication of these "human" authors, huh..

And it doesn't matter if he was trying to trick the high priest or not. What was written to be spoken from Jesus (God) was not true, as evidenced in the rest of the story. He may not have said it, but the bible says he did. The problem is still there.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT

Did you read the part where is says "received the mark of the beast?"
That refers to the end time and the people who receive the mark.

The meaning is clear - followers - both human and 'demonic'

As to the other verses - sure they contradict the above statement ... but then it's not hard to find contradictions in the bible.

I never said humans wouldn't be tormented in hell forever. The point I made is that the wicked...people who die with out the grace of God simply cease to exist. They are destroyed. Now when prophecy comes to fruition, things change. It's all or nothing. If you follow Satan then you end up with the same fate as him.

Contradictions only exist in your interpretation of the Bible. Unless you can show me how your interpretation is the correct interpretation, you cannot continue to claim the Bible has contradictions. But some how I don't think that matters to you...you sly devil...you. :devil3:

Jayrok · 07-22-2006, 09:43 PM

Quote:

people who die with out the grace of God simply cease to exist. They are destroyed. Now when prophecy comes to fruition, things change. It's all or nothing. If you follow Satan then you end up with the same fate as him.

Where is your biblical support for this?

DBT · 07-22-2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Contradictions only exist in your interpretation of the Bible. Unless you can show me how your interpretation is the correct interpretation, you cannot continue to claim the Bible has contradictions. But some how I don't think that matters to you...you sly devil...you. :devil3:

Interpretation?
When one verse states that salvation is by faith alone, and another verse states that faith alone is insufficient, and good works are required.
Both statements are clear, they stand on their own- and they are mutually contradictory

So do they require interpretation?

philbar · 07-22-2006, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBT

Interpretation?
When one verse states that salvation is by faith alone, and another verse states that faith alone is insufficient, and good works are required.
Both statements are clear, they stand on their own- and they are mutually contradictory

So do they require interpretation?

Don't even start with that. Heaven forbid we hijack a thread.

We are saved by faith. Faith produces works. No amount of works will save us. Ergo we are saved by faith and works are a way to verify that we have that faith.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

Where is your biblical support for this?

The top of the page:

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

Revelation 14 is only referring to Satan and his followers. It does not mention wicked people. Here is what the Bible says about them:

Re 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Re 20:14 - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Matthew 10:28 - "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Jayrok · 07-22-2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

The top of the page:

You don't think there were/are people who died without the grace of God in the sea, or hades? You think those places only had wicked people in them?

None of those verses in Rev 20 mention anything about "the wicked". Just how many people do you think choose to "follow Satan"?

Most people who don't believe in God also don't believe in Satan... much less follow him.

Invictus · 07-22-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by philbar

The death of the tree was spiritual death do to God's wrath in Hell.

Revelation 21:8 - But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

God did not lie. Unfortunately, you have bought into the lie the snake started in the Garden.

Furthermore, I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that it was Satan that deceived them but rather their own intellect. They probably saw a snake or similar creature eating the fruit and thought, "hey, that creature didn't die". So they concluded that they could probably eat of it too and be fine. The bad thing for them is that God commanded them not to do it, so in doing so...they sealed their doom in Hell.

Also, all your remarks on Abraham lieing has nothing to do with God. God didn't command him to lie. You are mistaken.

At this juncture, this is way off point. But, isn't it a pretty sizable presumption to say that it could have been their intellect, or that they saw a snake (or some other creature) eat the fruit? Is there any scriptural evidence for such an assumption? I tend to interpret passages in a literal sense (with context factored in) and don't see any ambiguities here.

Regards,

T.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayrok

You don't think there were/are people who died without the grace of God in the sea, or hades? You think those places only had wicked people in them?

Hades is the Greek word for the underworld. I personally interpret it (don't assume I'm correct or that this is mainstream Christianity) as simply the grave; A place where we literally R.I.P. Believers and unbelievers both have been to Hades. Some will tell you that after Jesus' resurrection believers don't go to Hades anymore. I disagree with this view.

Hades will eventually be thrown into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed by God's wrath. This happens after God raises the believers from Hades so all unbelievers will be thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Quote:

None of those verses in Rev 20 mention anything about "the wicked". Just how many people do you think choose to "follow Satan"?

It's unclear. This is all still coming though...at least I think.

Quote:

Most people who don't believe in God also don't believe in Satan... much less follow him.

It still won't save them from a painful destruction by God's wrath.

philbar · 07-22-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Invictus

At this juncture, this is way off point. But, isn't it a pretty sizable presumption to say that it could have been their intellect, or that they saw a snake (or some other creature) eat the fruit? Is there any scriptural evidence for such an assumption? I tend to interpret passages in a literal sense (with context factored in) and don't see any ambiguities here.

Regards,

T.

Nope...it's just my opinion. But I don't know any snakes which can talk and Satan is never mentioned in these passages.

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