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Old 12-26-2007, 09:59 AM   #1
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Default Polydor Hochart

I've gotten involved with a guy on another board who swears that Polydore Hochart, who lived in the early 19th century apparently, had "proven" that all references to "Jesus", "Christ", or "christians" were forgeries created after the Council of Nicaea as part of a plan to create a history.

While I agree that there were some forgeries, I have really gotten into it with him over assertions that non-complimentary references (such as Pliny) would be forgeries, also. I really can't see a Christian forger writing for Pliny that many of the people he "questioned" turned around and sacrificed to the emperor and denounced Christ. That makes no sense. A christian forger would have written that those "questioned" had resolutely clung to the faith even up till death....as that was where the mythology was heading.

Anyway, I have repeatedly asked him to substantiate his claims but, in a google search on Hochart, I found only 8 English references and three of them were written by this one fellow on different message boards and two others were dead links. The others went back to a Da Vinci Code website!

Does anyone know anything about this particular scholar and, most important, why has he been dismissed, apparently, by both sides in this ongoing argument?
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Old 12-26-2007, 10:13 AM   #2
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He is otherwise known as Philippe Hochart. There are some references here, but it appears that his work involved Tacitus, not the general invention of Christianity.
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Old 12-26-2007, 02:36 PM   #3
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If you google Horchart + Pliny you will find more. It appears that Horchart did challenge the authenticity of the Pliny reference.

LINK
Quote:
"I have never been present at an examination of Christians. Consequently, I do not know the nature of the extent of the punishments usually meted out to them, nor the grounds of starting an investigation and how far it should be pressed … I have asked them if they are Christians, and if they admit it, I repeat the question a second and third time, with a warning of the punishment awaiting them. If they persist, I order them to be led away for execution; for, whatever the nature of their admission, I am convinced that their stubbornness and unshakable obstinacy ought not to go unpunished … They also declared that the sum total of their guilt or error to be no more than this: they had met regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses alternately amongst themselves in honor of Christ as if to a god, and also bind themselves by oath, not for any criminal purpose, but to abstain from theft, robbery, and adultery … This made me decide that it was all the more necessary to extract the truth by torture from two slave-women whom they call deaconesses. I found nothing but a degenerate sort of cult carried to extravagant lengths."
RESPONSE:

The letter of Pliny is a Christian forgery, because it was never quoted by any Church Father, and many scholars have cast doubt upon this letter, apparently written by a Christian forger:
Taylor remarks, "We have the name of Christ, and nothing else but the name, where the name of Apollo or Bacchus would have filled up the sense quite as well." Taylor then casts doubt on the authenticity of the letter as a whole, recounting the work of German critics, who "have maintained that this celebrated letter is another instance to be added to the long list of Christian forgeries" One of these German luminaries, Dr. Semler of Leipsic provided "nine arguments against its authenticity" He also notes that the Pliny epistle is quite similar to that allegedly written by "Tiberianus, Governor of Syria" to Trajan, which has been universally denounced as a forgery.

Also, like the TF, Pliny's letter is not quoted by any early Church father, including Justin Martyr. Tertullian briefly mentions its existence, noting that it refers to terrible persecutions of Christians. However, the actual text used today comes from a version by a Christian monk in the 15th century, Iucundus of Verona, whose composition apparently was based on Tertullian's assertions. Concurring that the Pliny letter is suspicious, Drews terms "doubtful" Tertullian's "supposed reference to it." Drews then names several authorities who likewise doubted its authenticity, "either as a whole or in material points," including Semler, Aub, Havet, Hochart, Bruno Bauer and Edwin Johnson.

The worshippers of Serapis are Christians, and those are devoted to the God Serapis, who call themselves the bishops of Christ. There is no ruler of a Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Presbyter of the Christians, who is not either an astrologer, a soothsayer, or a minister to obscene pleasures. The very Patriarch himself, should he come into Egypt, would be required by some to worship Serapis, and by others to worship Christ. They have, however, but one God, and it is one and the self-same whom Christians, Jews and Gentiles alike adore, i.e., money. ( http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm )
This quote, from a Muslim counter-apologetics site appears to be from Acharya S's Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled (or via: amazon.co.uk). (Apologetics makes strange bedfellows, no?)

The Taylor cited appears to be the Rev. Robert Taylor, the original Devil's Chaplain, who was hounded for his freethinking.
Quote:
Reverend Robert Taylor (1784 – 1844), was an early 19th century Radical, a clergyman turned freethinker whose "Infidel home missionary tour" was a dramatic incident in Charles Darwin's education, subsequently leaving Charles Darwin with a horrifying memory of "the Devil's Chaplain" as a warning of the dangers of dissent from established Church of England doctrine.
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Old 12-26-2007, 03:10 PM   #4
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Tertullian, of course, does reference the Pliny correspondence, as is acknowledged above.

The text does not derive from some 'Iucundus of Verona' (who?) but from an ancient 5th century manuscript of the 10-book family which by the end of the middle ages was in the abbey of Saint-Victor in Paris. This was acquired by the Venetian printer, Aldus Manutius, used for his editio princeps of the text and then thrown away as was the custom of the times (Avantius in 1508 also saw this ms. and printed book 10 letters 41-121 and Bude must have seen it also as he created a curious volume with a handwritten copy of letters 1-40 followed by the edition of Avantius). Only a small portion of the uncial ms. now survives, in the Pierpont Morgan collection.

The idea that any text must be forged if the 1% of surviving literature from antiquity does not happen to refer to it is pure polemic, of course.

Robert Taylor was a Anglican priest who was defrocked around 1820. His entry in the DNB is perhaps rather fuller and more balanced than that in Wikipedia. I learn from this that he was imprisoned for financial fraud and also was sued for breach of promise to marry (he fled to France rather than pay the £250 damages to the woman). His behaviour was somewhat curious:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DNB
In May 1830 Taylor took the Rotunda, Blackfriars Road, London, and preached in episcopal garb to large audiences. His services were theatrical affairs, and his sermons full of ‘coarse remarks’ and ‘excremental jokes’, which mocked through imitation the rites of the Anglican church: in 1834 he was reported to have drunk gin and water, ‘which he says is as good as the blood of Jesus Christ’ (McCalman, 203). Two sermons on the devil (6 and 13 June) gained him the title of the Devil's Chaplain from Henry Hunt; the Rotunda became known as the Devil's Pulpit.
Inevitably he was twice imprisoned for public blasphemy, the second time for breaching his bail conditions. The older text of the DNB that I read some years ago, IIRC, states that the judge in fact considered that he was merely seeking notoriety and refused to allow some of the cases to proceed against him.

I found when I looked into Joseph Wheless that some patristic 'quotes' which Wheless took from Taylor's Diegesis do not actually exist in the sources Taylor pretends to reference.

I suppose every movement has its lunatic fringe.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 12-26-2007, 03:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
Tertullian, of course, does reference the Pliny correspondence. But the idea that any text must be forged if the 1% of surviving literature from antiquity does not happen to refer to it is pure polemic.
Furthermore, the entire response on that website is set up as if to anesthetize (oh, sorry... for you Brits that should be anesthetise, right? ) the reader to the fact that Tertullian references this Plinian letter.

One would never guess from the following...:
The letter of Pliny is a Christian forgery, because it was never quoted by any Church Father, and many scholars have cast doubt upon this letter, apparently written by a Christian forger....
...that Tertullian ever wrote anything about the letter. And then one would never guess from that shoe dropping...:
Tertullian briefly mentions its existence, noting that it refers to terrible persecutions of Christians.
...that Tertullian actually refers to a good deal more than just the element of persecution.

Ben.
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Old 12-26-2007, 04:18 PM   #6
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Thanks, everyone. Now I shall return to the fray!
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Old 12-26-2007, 04:58 PM   #7
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Hmmm, I have a copy of this book signed by ol' Joe hisself:

Forgery in Christianity, A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Joseph Wheless, N.Y.: Alfed A Knopf (1930).

What quotations do you refer to? Now I'm curious. If you can give page numbers I'd be grateful. I see Diegeses quoted once under a section heading, but am not sure where the "patistic" citations are supposed to be. The only ones he seems to attribute to Diegesis are John Chrysostom "Commentary of 1 Cor ix.19" (pg 309), and Augustine "Sermon 37" (pg 271), both citations in the Foreward. Otherwise, he seems to use the ANF and N&PNF series, Catholic Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Biblica.

DCH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Pearse View Post
I found when I looked into Joseph Wheless that some patristic 'quotes' which Wheless took from Taylor's Diegesis do not actually exist in the sources Taylor pretends to reference.

I suppose every movement has its lunatic fringe.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
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Old 12-26-2007, 05:09 PM   #8
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I have an online link to Wheless' book if anyone doesn't want to buy it.

http://www.apollonius.net/forgery.pdf
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Old 12-26-2007, 06:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
I have an online link to Wheless' book if anyone doesn't want to buy it.

http://www.apollonius.net/forgery.pdf
Well I'll be dingie dong dangied. ABE has a Knopf 1st edition (as this appears to be) with signature, but also dedicated to a well known "feethinker," on sale for $275. A regular everyday Knopf 1st edition is $95. Both those lack dust jackets, which I have (although partly missing). Bids anyone ... <g>

The online edition above is published by "Psychiana" of Moscow, Idaho, "copyright 1930" (but I suspect it is a reprint as the text is obviously reformatted, and is only 365 pages, whereas the Knopf edition is 406 pages, plus 22 page index). They go for $70.

DCH
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Old 12-26-2007, 06:55 PM   #10
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Wheless' text is also online in the Infidels library here - if you like reading html that looks like an old typewriter.
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