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12-26-2007, 09:59 AM | #1 |
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Polydor Hochart
I've gotten involved with a guy on another board who swears that Polydore Hochart, who lived in the early 19th century apparently, had "proven" that all references to "Jesus", "Christ", or "christians" were forgeries created after the Council of Nicaea as part of a plan to create a history.
While I agree that there were some forgeries, I have really gotten into it with him over assertions that non-complimentary references (such as Pliny) would be forgeries, also. I really can't see a Christian forger writing for Pliny that many of the people he "questioned" turned around and sacrificed to the emperor and denounced Christ. That makes no sense. A christian forger would have written that those "questioned" had resolutely clung to the faith even up till death....as that was where the mythology was heading. Anyway, I have repeatedly asked him to substantiate his claims but, in a google search on Hochart, I found only 8 English references and three of them were written by this one fellow on different message boards and two others were dead links. The others went back to a Da Vinci Code website! Does anyone know anything about this particular scholar and, most important, why has he been dismissed, apparently, by both sides in this ongoing argument? |
12-26-2007, 02:36 PM | #3 | ||
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If you google Horchart + Pliny you will find more. It appears that Horchart did challenge the authenticity of the Pliny reference.
LINK Quote:
The Taylor cited appears to be the Rev. Robert Taylor, the original Devil's Chaplain, who was hounded for his freethinking. Quote:
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12-26-2007, 03:10 PM | #4 | |
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Tertullian, of course, does reference the Pliny correspondence, as is acknowledged above.
The text does not derive from some 'Iucundus of Verona' (who?) but from an ancient 5th century manuscript of the 10-book family which by the end of the middle ages was in the abbey of Saint-Victor in Paris. This was acquired by the Venetian printer, Aldus Manutius, used for his editio princeps of the text and then thrown away as was the custom of the times (Avantius in 1508 also saw this ms. and printed book 10 letters 41-121 and Bude must have seen it also as he created a curious volume with a handwritten copy of letters 1-40 followed by the edition of Avantius). Only a small portion of the uncial ms. now survives, in the Pierpont Morgan collection. The idea that any text must be forged if the 1% of surviving literature from antiquity does not happen to refer to it is pure polemic, of course. Robert Taylor was a Anglican priest who was defrocked around 1820. His entry in the DNB is perhaps rather fuller and more balanced than that in Wikipedia. I learn from this that he was imprisoned for financial fraud and also was sued for breach of promise to marry (he fled to France rather than pay the £250 damages to the woman). His behaviour was somewhat curious: Quote:
I found when I looked into Joseph Wheless that some patristic 'quotes' which Wheless took from Taylor's Diegesis do not actually exist in the sources Taylor pretends to reference. I suppose every movement has its lunatic fringe. All the best, Roger Pearse |
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12-26-2007, 03:25 PM | #5 | |
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One would never guess from the following...: The letter of Pliny is a Christian forgery, because it was never quoted by any Church Father, and many scholars have cast doubt upon this letter, apparently written by a Christian forger.......that Tertullian ever wrote anything about the letter. And then one would never guess from that shoe dropping...: Tertullian briefly mentions its existence, noting that it refers to terrible persecutions of Christians....that Tertullian actually refers to a good deal more than just the element of persecution. Ben. |
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12-26-2007, 04:18 PM | #6 |
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Thanks, everyone. Now I shall return to the fray!
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12-26-2007, 04:58 PM | #7 |
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Hmmm, I have a copy of this book signed by ol' Joe hisself:
Forgery in Christianity, A Documented Record of the Foundations of the Christian Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk), by Joseph Wheless, N.Y.: Alfed A Knopf (1930). What quotations do you refer to? Now I'm curious. If you can give page numbers I'd be grateful. I see Diegeses quoted once under a section heading, but am not sure where the "patistic" citations are supposed to be. The only ones he seems to attribute to Diegesis are John Chrysostom "Commentary of 1 Cor ix.19" (pg 309), and Augustine "Sermon 37" (pg 271), both citations in the Foreward. Otherwise, he seems to use the ANF and N&PNF series, Catholic Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Biblica. DCH |
12-26-2007, 05:09 PM | #8 |
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I have an online link to Wheless' book if anyone doesn't want to buy it.
http://www.apollonius.net/forgery.pdf |
12-26-2007, 06:27 PM | #9 | |
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The online edition above is published by "Psychiana" of Moscow, Idaho, "copyright 1930" (but I suspect it is a reprint as the text is obviously reformatted, and is only 365 pages, whereas the Knopf edition is 406 pages, plus 22 page index). They go for $70. DCH |
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