diana

Fair enough. Your repetition of belief and continued failure to address objections from your own book already convinced me that you aren't interested in examining the reasonableness of your belief. I agree to disagree with your belief as well as your approach.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this silly statement, as well. By this logic, the pre-Columbus Native Americans were not for Jesus so they must have been against him. Most of the people living when he died had no clue who he was, and therefore were not for him; ergo, they must have been against him.

There's a great deal of middle ground, generally speaking, populated by those who are ignorant of Jesus entirely, don't know enough to take a side, or just don't give a poo one way or another.

d

Bold

We are straying somewhat off-topic here, but I must say I find your argument difficult to comprehend. To love somebody as they really are, you have to know who they really are. If you are only guessing, which you seem to think is better, you could be loving a mirage.

Perhaps to get us back on topic I could find a verse or two which would show, if the bible were true, that God isn't what you seem to think he is...

Gen 6 God repents his mistakes
"6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Numbers 31 God demands large scale human sacrifice and a number of virgins for himself.
(whole chapter)

Numbers 33 God is not alone
"33:4 For the Egyptians buried all their firstborn, which the LORD had smitten among them: upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments."

Judges 11 God tricks Jephthah into sacrificing his daughter

Ec 3 There is no afterlife
"3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast."

Genesis 32 Jacob wrestles with God and wins (I am not making this up!)
vv 24-30

...

For which of these demonstrations of character do you love God the most?

John Kesler

And when did I say otherwise? You and Ebonmuse are kicking around a straw man, because I never said or implied that homosexuality was the only, or even defining sin of Sodom. I simply said that "fundamentalists," as Ebon referred to them, who consider the NT as authoritative as the OT, can quote Jude 7 proof that a biblical author connected Sodom with sexual sin.

See my comments to diana. Also, this is a strained analogy. Homosexual relations are condemned by the Bible as sinful. Genesis 19 depicts men who wanted to engage in homosexual relations. Ergo, Genesis 19 depicts the sin of homosexuality. Whether this sin was the reason for Sodom's destruction, or if it was a reason at all is immaterial to my point. Jude chose to mention the sexual depravity aspect of the Genesis 19 pericope to make his point and Ezekiel didn't.

Helpmabob

Dear Bold – In all cases, it depends how you look at it – are you trying to find God, or are you trying to convince yourself that something else brought the world into existence where nothingness previously existed. I am limited for time, but here is my reading of two of the many ‘uncaring God’ passages you quote:

Judges 11 - God did not trick Jephthah. God gave Jephthah victory in battle vs. the Ammonmites [Judges 11:32]. Jephthah did not need to make this vow to God, as we are told God’s spirit had already descended onto him [11:29] – it was rashness on Jepthah’s part - He was trying to do a deal with God, force God’s hand. Compare with Othniel [3:9-11] another leader who was chosen by God, and followed God commands humbly. God also used him to deliver victory to the Israelites, but there was none of the attendant slaughter of family members and fellow Israelites (Gileadites vs Ephraimites in Jephthah’s case [12:6]). God provided victory, despite Jephthah’s weaknesses – this provides for me both a warning and hope for today.

Ecclesiastes 3 - Ecclesiastes was written by someone who did not know God, but acknowledges that there must be one. He speaks a lot of sense, but he speaks as one who has not come to the conviction that man is any higher than the beasts. He illustrates many of the dilemmas faced by the faithless lacking answers to some of the injustices that seem to go unanswered by God. He talks about ‘chasing the wind’, and the apparent meaninglessness of life. He suggests that this is what it means to exclude our creator God from our lives. Here is how he finishes the book:

Be warned, my son, of anything in addition to them. Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. [Eccl 12:12,14]

Bold

Jephthah didn't know he was offering his daughter, and God did, right? Or are you saying the deal was only one sided, that God was silent, and Jephthah happened to win anyway on his own? Perhaps we should view all the OT wars this way?
Well this is fantastic. A book of the bible is merely somebody's musing on what God might be like. Guess what? So are all the other books.

There is no rhyme or reason to inferring support for your view of God from the bible. The cruel, weak and petty God is a consistent thread, and anything that says otherwise is taken out of context and needs to be reinterpreted. Sound familiar?

You judge your scripture according to your doctrines, not the other way round.

pharoah

Ah...the famous Christian false choice: God or nothingness. There are many, many alternative options:

• Eternal universe.
• A completely naturalistic explanation. Just because we don't currently know doesn't mean that the explanation is supernatural.
• A completely non-caring creator.
• A committee of gods.
• A dead creator.
• Pantheism.
• A non-christian god (Allah,Zeus,Odin,Horus,Ra,Mithras,etc.)

I wouldn't say that God "tricked" Jepthah, but why was there no unequivical rejection of his sacrifice offer that one would expect from a God that claimed to abhor human sacrifice? Why did he allow Jepthah to go through with it?

This presents you with an even greater problem if you believe that God inspired the authors of the Bible. Either what he wrote is true or God inspired him to write a lie. If you assert that God didn't inspire him, then why is this book in the Bible at all? Tell me what criteria we should use to distinguish between inspired and uninspired scripture.

Ebonmuse

Are you quite sure of that? Here's Strong's Concordance for the word used in Genesis 19:5:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_d...1760-4753.html

While it's true that this word can be a euphemism for sexual intercourse, it's obvious from these passages that that is not its only or even its primary meaning. (I've seen sites - I'll try to find a link - arguing that the word "know" in this context means the same as it does in English, and that the men of Sodom weren't intending to rape Lot's guests, but to interrogate them to see if they were spies.)

Note, also, that even if the residents of Sodom wanted to rape the angels, that could not possibly have been the sin that merited the city's destruction - because God had decided to destroy the city before this happened. The reason the angels were coming was to warn Lot and his family of the impending destruction. Given that no Old Testament verse ever mentions homosexuality as the reason for Sodom's destruction, and those that do discuss it flatly state that the reason was something else, I find it by far more likely that the author of Jude wrongly interpreted the OT.

diana

I know. I was just ranting in general. I quoted you because your comment was what made me think of the rant. My apologies for appearing to attack you.

I know.

Why the sin of homosexuality and not the sin of rape (abuse, whatever)? The parallel story in Judges 19 & 20 would suggest that this is the case. This is why I argue that the homosexuality was incidental. It was the motivation behind it that was the offense.

That's an interesting point. Oddly, it's so obvious that it never occurred to me. (But all the fundamentalist has to do is throw Jude in your face and argue that that was the reason God was going to destroy S&G.)

d

Helpmabob

Hi Bold - God gives us free will. Jephthah was choosing not to listen to God (as the spirit had come upon him [11:29]), much in the same way that a christian might ignore or not pay adequate attention to verses in the Bible today. God does not intervene willy-nilly and the consequences are there for us to see and learn from.

I have made a mistake above ( I don't mind admitting) - it is generally accepted that Ecclesiastes was written by Solomon. Ecclesiastes also says that "All is vanity" and "Money is the answer for everything" - things which are only true when you take God out of the picture. God be praised, these verses are great for learning, and certainly not to be ignored by christians or anyone. If you really want to, you can interpret it all as a fairy story and infer that we are all figments of each other's imagination. You're free to choose. On the other hand, the Bible as truth offers you some answers and insight into a lot of what goes on in the world. I don't recommend ignoring this either. God gives Jacob something, he answers his prayer if you like. But notice the effort that went into the prayer - And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. [32:24] The lesson is that fervent prayer will be more likely to be answered by God.

Helpmabob

Hi pharoah , Throughout history, people have had alternative 'gods'. There is no earthly or heavenly law against them for now. I choose the christian God as He offers answers to a lot of the questions in this world, and as a bonus, forgiveness for my sins. God allows free will. He gave the Gileadites victory, despite Jephthah's weaknesses. God does seem to contradict Himself here, but consider this parable:

Imagine you are west of town at 10am, and an unkempt looking man asks you for directions to a wedding at noon in the centre of town. Then three hours later, you are in the centre of town, and meet the same man, tidied up, but still looking for wedding directions.

You would say:
1. comb your hair, and go east, but you have plenty of time;
2. you look fine, it is just round the corner, but you are late.

Different place, time and circumstances = different lessons to be learnt.