Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sschlichter · 11-18-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

You do not feel there is any internal evidence that Matthew, John, and Hebrews were written by Jews?

It's possible. It's also possible that they received Jews as proselytizers or used sources which were Jewish influenced.

spin

that remains a possibility I guess. which do you find more likely?

The Dagda · 11-18-2008, 10:43 AM

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Originally Posted by sschlichter

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Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Which god?You act like they all beleieve in your god. Truth is you Xians cant even agree on what god is or even who he/it/them is. You all have diffrent deffinitions. An argumentum ad populum (Latin: "appeal to the people"), in logic, is a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or all people believe it; it alleges that "If many believe so, it is so."

People used to believe the world was flat so therefore it is?
People used to believe sickness was caused by sin so therefore that made it true?
People used to say if man was made to fly god would give him wings so this is a true statement?
People used to believe in menataurs, unicorns, satyrs, and all amounts of mythical god creatures so therefore they actually existed right?
God exist soley in the minds of men and stuff that happens inside your own head is not evidence of existance, it is only evidence of your own creative outlet.

You are arguing my point. Truth is not decided by majority vote.

He would be if I ever tried to claim that just because the Jews say it it must be true, but in fact I never made any such claim I just asked how you would imagine the Jews would answer my question about fighting God, and so far you have failed to provide an answer. If you can't because you don't believe Yahweh exists then so be it. The Muslims also believe God is indivisible I never said they were right either, and the Buddhists believe that the source of the Universe need not be a God, it could just be energy or something incorporeal, are they right? Because a billion Chinese people can't be wrong?

So your argument is in effect a straw man.

sschlichter · 11-18-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

You are arguing my point. Truth is not decided by majority vote.

He would be if I ever tried to claim that just because the Jews say it it must be true, but in fact I never made any such claim I just asked how you would imagine the Jews would answer my question about fighting God, and so far you have failed to provide an answer. If you can't because you don't believe Yahweh exists then so be it. The Muslims also believe God is indivisible I never said they were right either, and the Buddhists believe that the source of the Universe need not be a God, it could just be energy or something incorporeal, are they right? Because a billion Chinese people can't be wrong?

So your argument is in effect a straw man.

You did not ask me how I would imagine anything. that is a different question. Since I beleive Jesus is God, that is my answer. The Jews that I know that also beleive Jesus is God would answer in a similar way. I am sure you can find a Jew (perhaps the majority) that ignore the words of Moses and the prophets (as the Jews of there day did) who would suggest that God would smite you for calling him beardy. is that what you are looking for?

The Dagda · 11-18-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

He would be if I ever tried to claim that just because the Jews say it it must be true, but in fact I never made any such claim I just asked how you would imagine the Jews would answer my question about fighting God, and so far you have failed to provide an answer. If you can't because you don't believe Yahweh exists then so be it. The Muslims also believe God is indivisible I never said they were right either, and the Buddhists believe that the source of the Universe need not be a God, it could just be energy or something incorporeal, are they right? Because a billion Chinese people can't be wrong?

So your argument is in effect a straw man.

You did not ask me how I would imagine anything. that is a different question. Since I beleive Jesus is God, that is my answer. The Jews that I know that also beleive Jesus is God would answer in a similar way. I am sure you can find a Jew (perhaps the majority) that ignore the words of Moses and the prophets (as the Jews of there day did) who would suggest that God would smite you for calling him beardy. is that what you are looking for?

Yes. It makes that passage rather contradictory because if I refused God even though he existed I'd either be insane, or rolling around on the floor punching the crap out of my creator, Rutguer Hauer does in Blade runner, when asked why he killed the creator, he says simply that he was of no further use any more. Do androids dream of electric sheep? I don't know I imagine so...

Johnny Skeptic · 11-18-2008, 10:56 AM

Message to sschlichter: I invite you to make a post in my thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum that is titled "Slavery." The link is http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=255542. I believe that the opening post reasonably proves that what the Bible says about slavery was written by followers of the God of the Bible of their own accord without any inspiration from God. Participation by Christians in that thread has been quite infrequent, and quite convenient I might add.

The fact that what the Bible says about slavery is questionable is good reason for people to question what is says about God choosing Jews to be his chosen people.

God promised to give all of the land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants as an everlasting covenant. Do you have any idea when the everlasting covenant will begin? If Jesus returns to earth in 2009, the covenant will not have even begun unless Jews occupy all of the land of Canaan. Surely Old Testament Jews believed that they would occupy all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting convenant in this life, not in the next life. It appears that they have been deceived.

sschlichter · 11-18-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

You did not ask me how I would imagine anything. that is a different question. Since I beleive Jesus is God, that is my answer. The Jews that I know that also beleive Jesus is God would answer in a similar way. I am sure you can find a Jew (perhaps the majority) that ignore the words of Moses and the prophets (as the Jews of there day did) who would suggest that God would smite you for calling him beardy. is that what you are looking for?

Yes. It makes that passage rather contradictory because if I refused God even though he existed I'd either be insane, or rolling around on the floor punching the crap out of my creator, Rutguer Hauer does in Blade runner, when asked why he killed the creator, he says simply that he was of no further use any more. Do androids dream of electric sheep? I don't know I imagine so...

I am not sure what passage you are referring to, but God's attributes are clearly visible in nature and conscience. It is our own desire to be autonomous from God that blinds us from his presence where we choose to ignore him (or box with him, in this case.)

~Steve

The Dagda · 11-18-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Dagda

Yes. It makes that passage rather contradictory because if I refused God even though he existed I'd either be insane, or rolling around on the floor punching the crap out of my creator, Rutguer Hauer does in Blade runner, when asked why he killed the creator, he says simply that he was of no further use any more. Do androids dream of electric sheep? I don't know I imagine so...

I am not sure what passage you are referring to, but God's attributes are clearly visible in nature and conscience. It is our own desire to be autonomous from God that blinds us from his presence where we choose to ignore him (or box with him, in this case.)

~Steve

Or our pathological hatred that makes us want not only to ignore him but beat him up or even kill him because he has grown old or senile or whatever other attributes would explain how messed up his creation is.

spin · 11-18-2008, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

It's possible. It's also possible that they received Jews as proselytizers or used sources which were Jewish influenced.

that remains a possibility I guess. which do you find more likely?

I'm gonna get annoyed when the next person asks me this type of question. (The last was Elijah, who insisted that I had a more likely candidate for whatever he was arguing against.) If I'd preferred one, you should expect that I'd say so immediately without needing prompting, rather than my simply questioning the assumption here of Jewishness. I like putting untested assumptions out into the open.

spin

sschlichter · 11-18-2008, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

that remains a possibility I guess. which do you find more likely?

I'm gonna get annoyed when the next person asks me this type of question. (The last was Elijah, who insisted that I had a more likely candidate for whatever he was arguing against.) If I'd preferred one, you should expect that I'd say so immediately without needing prompting, rather than my simply questioning the assumption here of Jewishness. I like putting untested assumptions out into the open.

spin

I do not know who Elijah is or what axe you are grinding but I was actually curious which you felt was more likely.

James Brown · 11-18-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sschlichter

I am not sure what passage you are referring to, but God's attributes are clearly visible in nature and conscience. It is our own desire to be autonomous from God that blinds us from his presence where we choose to ignore him (or box with him, in this case.)

~Steve

They are? God is red in tooth and claw? God is capricious and deadly? God evolved over billions of years to its present form from a common ancestor? God is mindless? God has no concept of death or eternity? God acts on instinct? God is amoral? God is subject to death and decay? God is a social creature evolved to simultaneously maximize utility while minimizing cost?

Those are the attributes that I see in nature and in the human conscience. So those are God's attributes?

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11-18-2008, 10:56 AM	#55
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sschlichter: I invite you to make a post in my thread at the General Religious Discussions Forum that is titled "Slavery." The link is http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=255542. I believe that the opening post reasonably proves that what the Bible says about slavery was written by followers of the God of the Bible of their own accord without any inspiration from God. Participation by Christians in that thread has been quite infrequent, and quite convenient I might add. The fact that what the Bible says about slavery is questionable is good reason for people to question what is says about God choosing Jews to be his chosen people. God promised to give all of the land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants as an everlasting covenant. Do you have any idea when the everlasting covenant will begin? If Jesus returns to earth in 2009, the covenant will not have even begun unless Jews occupy all of the land of Canaan. Surely Old Testament Jews believed that they would occupy all of the land of Canaan as an everlasting convenant in this life, not in the next life. It appears that they have been deceived.

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