Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 10-29-2008, 01:21 PM

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

Toto · 10-29-2008, 02:53 PM

Nope.

Deuteronomy 14:1 You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, 2 for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.

No reason given or required.

Jews_as_a_chosen_people

Quote:

The idea of chosenness has traditionally been interpreted by Jews in two ways: one way is that God chose the Israelites, while the other idea is that the Israelites chose God. Although collectively this choice was made freely, religious Jews believe that it created individual obligation for the descendants of the Israelites. Another opinion is that the choice was free in a limited context; that is, although the Jews chose to follow precepts ordained by God, Kabbalah and Tanya teach that even prior to creation, the "Jewish soul" was already chosen.

Crucial to the Jewish notion of chosenness is that it creates obligations exclusive to Jews, while non-Jews receive from God other covenants and other responsibilities. Generally, it does not entail exclusive rewards for Jews.

Atheos · 10-29-2008, 09:16 PM

The god of the Bible chose the Jews for the same reason that Ra chose the Egyptians, Marduk chose the Babylonians and Quetzalcoatl chose the Aztecs. Cultures that invent a supreme god generally fashion a god that favors themselves.

The best explanation I can think of from the bible itself is in Dueteronomy 32:8-9:

Quote:

When El Elyon divided to his children their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel.

For the Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob the lot of his inheritance.

Yahweh "inherited" his people from his father, same as Baal, Yam and Mot.

He got Jacob in the first draft, trading off Esau and a patriarch to be named later.

vijeno · 10-29-2008, 11:49 PM

Did other gods choose their people?

The god of Israel was once a clan god - he was the god of Abraham's clan, just as (I guess) every clan had their own god.

I think that whole question of chosing a people wouldn't have come up if this clan god hadn't changed into "the" god, the universal one and only god. Only when their god was special, more godly than the rest of the gods, did the problem of being chosen arise.

The bible really portrays a wide variety of images of god. Some are more universalist, while others are more particularist. I think the fact that these images got interwoven so tightly that they can hardly be separated, is the cause for lots of trouble. For, a universal god that favours one people over all the others can be said to be "on our side", he can have enemies, and you can wage wars in his name. A TRULY universalist god wouldn't be capable of being on one side, and wouldn't favour the "good" over the "sinners".

mountainman · 11-04-2008, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Does the Bible say why God chose Jews to be his chosen people? I look forward to reading comments from readers.

Dear Johnny Skeptic,

These assertions are made by the anti-semite Eusebius in his background research on the history of christianity, which was sponsored in the fourth century by the anti-semite Constantine, who is the first person on the planet known to have physically bound in one codex the new testament of christianity and the old testament of the greek version of the Hebrew (Jewish) Bible. This physical circumstantial association by binding the Hebrew Bible to the Constantinian "christian" testament has clouded the issue.

Best wishes,

Pete

premjan · 11-05-2008, 07:59 AM

They chose him so he chose them.

JEST2ASK · 11-05-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

I look forward to reading comments from readers.

He needed accountants:devil1:

Dutch_labrat · 11-05-2008, 09:13 AM

God is an unjust father who keeps favorites while torturing his other childeren.

Not unlike Fred Phelps :devil1:

arnoldo · 11-05-2008, 09:34 AM

Yes.

Hebrew 11

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

The Jews were chosen because Abram had faith. . .

James Brown · 11-05-2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The Jews were chosen because Abram had faith. . .

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Per Genesis 12, Jehovah called Abram to leave his home country, and Abram obeyed. The reward for the obedience was that his descendants would be Jehovah's chosen people.

So why did God call Abram?

10-29-2008, 01:21 PM	#1
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Does the Bible say why God chose Jews to be his chosen people? I look forward to reading comments from readers.

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10-29-2008, 11:49 PM	#4
vijeno Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: vienna Posts: 74	Did other gods choose their people? The god of Israel was once a clan god - he was the god of Abraham's clan, just as (I guess) every clan had their own god. I think that whole question of chosing a people wouldn't have come up if this clan god hadn't changed into "the" god, the universal one and only god. Only when their god was special, more godly than the rest of the gods, did the problem of being chosen arise. The bible really portrays a wide variety of images of god. Some are more universalist, while others are more particularist. I think the fact that these images got interwoven so tightly that they can hardly be separated, is the cause for lots of trouble. For, a universal god that favours one people over all the others can be said to be "on our side", he can have enemies, and you can wage wars in his name. A TRULY universalist god wouldn't be capable of being on one side, and wouldn't favour the "good" over the "sinners".

11-05-2008, 07:59 AM	#6
premjan Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 61,538	They chose him so he chose them.

11-05-2008, 09:13 AM	#8
Dutch_labrat Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Leiden, The Netherlands Posts: 970	God is an unjust father who keeps favorites while torturing his other childeren. Not unlike Fred Phelps :devil1:

11-05-2008, 09:34 AM	#9
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	Yes. Hebrew 11 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. The Jews were chosen because Abram had faith. . .

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