Chili

Hello spin, that objection must be overruled because you miss the real message of the NT. The NT is written to give testimony to the new and improved way to reach heaven and the evidence for this improvement is that we have literally crammed this world with heaven.

The Sacred books of the Jews did not get changed in this process but just the way to get to heaven is changed. I guess the main drift here is that we can go by the example of Jesus on how to get there. To juxtapose the way of the NT with the way of the OT is to recognize that the Old Testament remains testimonial as a way to heaven and that alone should be taken as a compliment rather than an insult.

If anybody has a right to bitch it is the Catholic Church that was built on the keen insight of your Peter (faith) and perverted it to the point that all hell broke lose here on earth. This fire has been burning ever since and will continue to burn unto the destruction of this world right here upon this earth while in broad daylight for everyone to see.

I am not interested in dirtying this argument with examples wherein Jesus pointed at the difference between 'your father' and 'our Father' because that was a situation response made by Jesus and not relevant here. It would be an absolute non-cause argument as any other bible based argument would be.

The purpose of the NT is to show how to get into the promised land and not remain torn in the saved sinner complex like the children of Israel did, and continued to do on our side of the fence until they die in that same state of mind nonetheless. If this is true it must also be true that the Gospels take place between rebirth and Ascension which is what we call Purgatory today . . . to also make hell a place on earth for those who do not succeed in their attempt to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling. This is a simple argument wherein born again Catholics see their 'castle' (read ego) be consumed by fire and must escape 'through' the fire to be saved (loaded like this in 1 Cor.3:15) but always interpreted wrong by those who want to take their 'castle' with them when they die.

But you know what, we/I don't really care. I think it is fun either way, for what is the difference if low culture is needed to make high culture known. That's just the way the world turns except that we are dealing with human lives in this context. Sounds cruel but there is nothing we can do about it, and believe me, we tried! -- or I'll point you at the various Inquisitions that at least postponed the Reformation that nihilated the NT's improved way to get to heaven in Christendom.

Edited to add: And you know what spin? They still do not have a testament and insist that we must physically die before anything good can happen to us. In such a case, who is to bring the testament in force?

Chili

And I agree with this. The intentions never justify the negative outcome of our expression and unless there is good and sufficient reason to label the Hebrew Bible as the OT it is a slam against Judaism. Worse yet, those who seek their freedom in Jesus (NT) and cling to the OT towards justification have severed themselves from Christ and fallen from Gods favor (Gal.5:1-5).

It's absurd, and therefore wrong to cling to both, the OT and the NT as if the meaning of the NT is not comprehended as a testament but just another dimension of slavery (eg. long suffer the saved-sinner). To 'mean well' counts for nothing it you take into account that words are coined to express our true meaning, and they still do.

Chili

To me, there is no such a thing as a holy book for Christians who are supposed to have the mind of God. Holy Books are for Jews and for Catholics, neither of whom are Christians and as such can they walk side by side or drink beer together as sinners towards salvation. Catholics have their own Catechism unto salvation and when salvation comes their way they are no longer Catholic but Christian. From here they may, or may not, return to the Church Triumphant as victor of the Church Suffering (Purgatory) from where they function as saints in heaven. Notice that I make a clear distinction between Catholic and Christian.The opinion of self proclaimed Christians really counts for nothing without a Testament of their own. Both Judaism and Catholicism are inspired mystery religions who alone can tell such Christians where to go until they prove themselves to be 'in' the know. A million thanks for there is no greater than the OT.

How about HHB for Halfway House Book since without a testament of their own they have actually denied the very purpose for which it was written. The short story here is that the so called Christians have accepted Jesus' Way of the Cross ("he died for my sins" etc.) as a substitute for their own and have failed to take Jesus down from the cross and place themselves upon it.

Chili

That's just the whole point. Nazarenes don't want a bible. Just like Jesus they must destroy the temple and raise it in three days on the other side of religion as victors over slavery and sin. Jesus showed us that the only way to achieve this is without a Holy Book.

Chili

Mary was from Nazareth and if Christ was the fruit of Mary's womb Nazareth
was the City of God and Mary was the womb of God that bore the Nazorean to become the continuity of God. We call them Jesuits.

Chili

Interesting! It is the same thing really since bread is indoctrinated to us and when we want understanding we go to Bethlehem for the 'meat of it.' Yes indeed, pretty much like Joseph did when he went to give an account of himself. Lovely.

Chili

Well you can't have both. If you 'are' a Nazarite you can't take the vows and if you want to 'be' a Nazarite you must take the vows.

That is just like being happy Magdlyn. If I am happy you can't make me happy and if I want to be happy you can make me happy.

Magdlyn

Making sense as usual, Chili!

Chili

Lucky for me that if you can't make me happy you also can not make me sad. :thumbs:

Chili

In Catholicism Jesus died for the sins of the world and no emphasis is placed on the idea that he died for the sins of 'my' world. It is not part of Catholic theology that Jesus died for my sins and therefore I do not have to die to my own sin nature. In this sense are are we urged to pick up our cross daily and follow Jesus.

Catholics are Catholics just as Jews are Jews and neither are Christian but are awaiting the coming of their messiah under the banner of Christ, which will be the 'first coming' for the Jews and the 'second coming' for Catholics. After this Catholics are no longer Catholic just as Jesus was no longer a Jew after he became a Christian. Apart from this would I rather not 'lean' on Judaism but it was useful to make a point here.

Catholics are not "born again" and if you do not believe this ask any Baptist. The actual proof of this may be found in Catholic missions where protestant evangelicals are following Catholic missionaries to 'do 'm right,' so to speak, that will last a lifetime until they die.

Catholics are not bible people. In fact, bible study was never encouraged and a spiritual adviser is still recommended today to avoid the pitfalls of religious fundamentalism. Bible study is in direct conflict with the unleavened bread of Communion and is perceived as the yeast of the pharisees (with the Gutenberg press being the first yeast factory).

Catholics have confessionals to prove that they are sinners and charismatic disruptions are unheard of and not tolerated in church services. Charismatic groups may be tolerated but are shunned in most parishes . . . which is not to say that mission services are not part of the Church but are always presented in their own distinct manner.

Most likely Catholics have adopted the rather vague identity as Christian to get rid of pushy fundies that come soaring by on their 'Jesus vehicle.'Christianity is a condition of being and not a religion. Christianity has a testament and is either beyond the OT or beyond the NT but never part of it. Only those who think that it can be a religion are torn between heaven and hell (called "mid-heaven" in Rev.14:6) from where they can no longer see with clarity and distinction.

It is never a descendant of Judaism if it has its own testament and wrong to even suggest that God has grandchildren. If you are suggesting that Christians are trying to cuckold Judaism into birthing their messiah you should wish them luck (hint, ours if for Catholics only).