Answerer

Yeah, I agree. It is not once that the NT gospels wrote the words like ' before this generation ends' and 'I'm coming'. The revelation, itself, is full of urgency remarks.

And frankly speaking, this makes more sense to the mentality of the people at that time. A slow arrival of judgement day certainly could not attract lots of people to be Christians at the time of Roman empire where the suffering and prosecution of chrisitans were extreme.

Besides, there is another major difference. There is no 'Dragon' or 'Devil' in the OT. In the contrast, the Jews believed that the 'last days' would be a great battle between themselves and the Romans, not between God and Devil.

So, if the description of judgement day, itself, is different in both books, how could the description of hell be the anywhere closer?

:boohoo: :boohoo:

judge

Yikes!

judge

Hmmm..I think that there is a lot os similarity between between OT eschatological imagery and NT eschatological imagery, not to mention ancient jewish (extra biblical) literature.
Somehow by about 150 a.d "Christian" eschatology (or that which we have of it now) has become confused. At some point the "coming" of Christ comes to be seen as a future event rather than one associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.
Flowing out of this "new" understanding comes new understandings of ghenna, where the worm dieth not and probably many other concepts as well.

GakuseiDon

Pervy, a serious question: IYO, could you name one or more Christian denomations that haven't completely misinterpreted the Bible in reference to Hell?

judge

Thanks for the link Mike.

It is probably worth noting that the aramaic peshitta reads slightly differently to the greek translation of Luke in one instance relevant to this.

In Luke 16:23 the rich mans is in sheol.This is translated into greek as hades.
http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Luqach16.pdf

In Luke 12:5 the peshitta we read that one should fear him who after he has killed has authority to cast into ghenna.
http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/Luqach12.pdf

Both these aramaic words were tanslated into one greek word, hades, but the writer of Luke seems to have seen two different words for two different places/things.

I think there was probably no greek word which really captured the meaning of ghenna

Koyaanisqatsi

It's abundantly clear that "hell" is a catch-all phrase meant to be punishment for not believing the cult elders. It's irrelevant (to the authors) where or what or how or why. It's simply meant to scare the shit out of ignorant people.

The "parameters" of hell, if you will, changed to suit whatever audience was being indoctrinated. Hence you get the "fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in hell" taught to Hellenized Jews, who nonetheless believed in an underworld where the soul resides. Your god destroyes your body and sends you to Sheol? Well my god can not only destroy you on Earth, but he can also destroy you in Sheol. My god is bigger than your god and my god's punishment is bigger than your god's punishment.

Snake oil. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jackalope

Then again, the word "hades" in greek does not imply anything about flames or torture, either. It's simply the place that the dead go to and don't do much of anything. Otherwise Demeter (and Persephone!) would've been a lot more anguished than they were in the story...

And Orpheus certainly could've have gone down to rescue his wife from Hades if it weren't a real place to the greeks.

I think the real problem is that the nordic idea of Hell is much, much nastier. And (suprise) Loki is bound down there in Niflheim with a serpent over his head that drips acid venom on him. Come to think of it, if you want weird, weird end of the world scenarios read about Ragnarok. Look up Nagilfar, the ship the Jotun build out of the nail parings of dead men. You have to wonder how much of the current christian teachings about hell stem from germanic myths, with a few helpings of Black Plague later on to really turn up the horror factor.

judge

It may be that the concept was well developed by jews even at the time of Josephus.

according to this link....
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm





NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are
detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world
not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of
this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region
the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it
perpetual
darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill
which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them
temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.

2. In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of
unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast;
but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one
righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the
unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given
honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of
men
as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment, as
having been the causes of defilement; while the just shall obtain an
incorruptible and never-fading kingdom. These are now indeed confined
in
Hades, but not in the same place wherein the unjust are confined.

3. For there is one descent into this region, at whose gate we believe
there stands an archangel with an host; which gate when those pass
through that are conducted down by the angels appointed over souls,
they
do not go the same way; but the just are guided to the right hand, and
are led with hymns, sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto
a
region of light, in which the just have dwelt from the beginning of the
world; not constrained by necessity, but ever enjoying the prospect of
the good things they see, and rejoic in the expectation of those new
enjoyments which will be peculiar to every one of them, and esteeming
those things beyond what we have here; with whom there is no place of
toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold, nor are any briers there; but
the countenance of the and of the just, which they see, always smiles
them, while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven,
which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of
Abraham.

4. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand by
the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good-will,
but as prisoners driven by violence; to whom are sent the angels
appointed over them to reproach them and threaten them with their
terrible looks, and to thrust them still downwards. Now those angels
that are set over these souls drag them into the neighborhood of hell
itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of
it,
and do not stand clear of the hot vapor itself; but when they have a
near view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great
prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a
future
judgment, and in effect punished thereby: and not only so, but where
they see the place [or choir] of the fathers and of the just, even
hereby are they punished; for a chaos deep and large is fixed between
them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them cannot be
admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt
it, pass over it.

Dean Anderson

The 7th Day Adventists (and their derivatives) spring to mind.

According to religioustolerance.org, they believe that...

Also from religioustolerance.org, Jehovah's Witnesses believe...

Jackalope

I'm not sure which protestant denomination the author of this piece belonged to, but there's a sacred harp piece that starts, "And am I born to die?" The second verse sounds an awful lot like the greek idea of Hades again, not the pit of fire.

1. And am I born to die?
To lay this body down?
And must my trembling spirit fly
Into a world unknown,

2. A land of deepest shade,
Unpierced by human thought,
The dreary regions of the dead,
Where all things are forgot?

3. Soon as from earth I go,
What will become of me?
Eternal happiness or woe
Must then my portion be:

This section so far would imply an underworld, but not Flaming Hell.

4. Waked by the trumpet's sound,
I from my grave shall rise,
And see the Judge, with glory crowned,
And see the flaming skies!

5. How shall I leave my tomb?
With triumph or regret?
A fearful or a joyful doom,
A curse or blessing meet?

6. Will angel bands convey
Their brother to the bar?
Or devils drag my soul away,
To meet its sentence there?

And these three verses would imply that the dead sleep until Judgement Day, when their final fate is decided.


7. Who can resolve the doubt
That tears my anxious breast?
Shall I be with the damned cast out,
Or numbered with the blest?

8. I must from God be driven,
Or with my Savior dwell;
Must come at his command to heaven,
Or else--depart to hell!


So one can indeed go to Hell in this vision, but it's still not the traditional christian version of fire and brimstone. Come to think of it, the choice of heaven in this piece sounds rather ambiguous at best.

It too bad I can't find a date for this. Sacred Harp pieces can be anywhere from late 18th century to early 20th. The only clue I've got is the time signature, which is 3/2, arguing for an earlier rather than a later date.