JoeWallack

JW:
The External evidence is in regarding references to the Gospel of "Mark" and potential assertians as to it's authorship:

The Tale Wagging The Dogma. Which "Mark" Wrote "Mark"? A Dear John Letter

As my famous ancestor Joseph (Caiphus) used to say, "What more evidence do you need?"

Please answer the Poll as to when you think "Mark" was written based on the External evidence and indicate your reasons for doing so. The choices are:

1) Pre 70

2) 70-100

3) 100-125

4) Post 125

I choose 4) Post 125 for the following reasons:

1) The External evidence indicates a lack of awareness of "Mark" until Marcion c. 135. Papias is not only not evidence of the existence of "Mark" c. 125 but evidence that it does not exist at the time since Papias shows no awareness of it.

2) There is a reasonable expectation that if "Mark" existed pre 125 it would have been identified in extant writings because:

1 - Christianity was well established as an institution by that time

2 - A Jesus' narrative would have been hugely interesting to Christian authors.

3 - We know that subsequent Fathers such as Eusebius had access and were familiar to writings no longer extant which they combed through looking for references to the existence and authorship of "Mark".

3) We can see the gradual development of assertian of a known historical witness for "Mark" in the extant writings. The next author interprets from the previous one. This suggests the ultimate assertian of authorship was a process and not a discovery.

Everyone is welcome to respond except for Harvey Dubish.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page


ps my only regret here is that Yuri, who God knows why has unfiltered me, will snap to the fact that the External evidence, through Marcion, supports "Luke" as written first.

show_no_mercy

I personally don't know how to answer the question. The "Mark" that arrives to us today is most certainly a post-135 document. I'm not sure when the pen first struck the papyrus to start the writing of "Mark" though.

dog-on

With Deterring, post-Bar-kochba, seems possible.

JoeWallack

JW:
What I have in mind for purposes of this poll is Canonical "Mark" based on Textual Criticism.

While I have Faith that original "Mark" underwent significant qualitative editing/forging:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php..._1:1#Forgeries

the survival of "Mark's" complex structure, irony, low christology, anti-historical attitude and language copying from sources, makes me believe that Providence has made Christianity preserve forever what will ironically bring it to an end (not Jesus, but "Mark").



Joseph

EDITOR, n. A person who combines the judicial functions of Minos,
Rhadamanthus and Aeacus, but is placable with an obolus; a severely
virtuous censor, but so charitable withal that he tolerates the
virtues of others and the vices of himself; who flings about him the
splintering lightning and sturdy thunders of admonition till he
resembles a bunch of firecrackers petulantly uttering his mind at the
tail of a dog; then straightway murmurs a mild, melodious lay, soft as
the cooing of a donkey intoning its prayer to the evening star.
Master of mysteries and lord of law, high-pinnacled upon the throne of
thought, his face suffused with the dim splendors of the
Transfiguration, his legs intertwisted and his tongue a-cheek, the
editor spills his will along the paper and cuts it off in lengths to
suit. And at intervals from behind the veil of the temple is heard
the voice of the foreman demanding three inches of wit and six lines
of religious meditation, or bidding him turn off the wisdom and whack
up some pathos.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Internal evidence:

THE SYNOPTIC APOCALYPSE (MARK 13 PAR): A DOCUMENT FROM THE TIME OF BAR KOCHBA
Hermann Detering



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
In my Thread The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original 2nd Cent Gospel I indicated that the other category of External evidence, the physical manuscript evidence, also supports a dating for "Mark" of post 125:

JW:
I can understand why Christians here think that "Mark" was written pre-125 but for the Skeptics here, gurugeorge and Jayrok, who voted 70-100, what External evidence is there that made you vote for this range since I am unaware of any External evidence for this range?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

aa5874

This is my position as of now.

There were passages found in the gospel according to Mark that were written before the writings of Justin Martyr, but the attributing of a gospel to a writer named Mark, a disciple of Peter, was probably done after Justin Martyr.

I have isolated a certain passage found only in the the gospel of Mark, as it is today, that is also found in the writings of Justin Martyr.


Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho CVIMark 3:17 - Now, based on Justin, there was no sacred scripture called according to Mark, Justin referred to only the Memoirs of the Apostles as being read in the churches and the writer called Mark was not an apostle.

Switch89

I think we have to admit that we don't know when it was written. The evidence is tangled, confusing, and so often, from the small amount of research I've done, simply not there.

I personally think there was some oral gospel (or perhaps written gospel) similar to GMark that goes back to the 30's or 40's. Other than that, I have no clue.

aa5874

There is no evidence for any oral gospel, so it is not necessary to go back to the 30's or 40's.

Justin Martyr and Josephus may be the sources that can give some guidlines to the dating of the gospel according to Mark.

I use the John the Baptist story, especially the beheading of John the Baptist as found in Antiquities of the Jews as the earliest time any of the gospels could have been written, around 92 CE.

And, based on Justin Martyr, there appeared to have been Jesus believers around the time of Simon Barcocheba, or about 133 CE.

First Apology 31 Based on this then, it would be expected that there was perhaps some written Jesus story, perhaps the Memoirs of the Apostles that were already written since the time of Simon Barcochebas.

Clivedurdle

Seneca dun it!