net2002

Isaiah 53:5-6..........But He was pierced through for ourtransgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being {fell} upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

Isaiah 53:11-12...................As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see {it and} be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

Christians say that the above passages were fulfilled in Romans 5:8 and I Peter 2:24.

Jesus will be killed:
Isaiah 53:8-9..................By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke {was due?} His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

Isaiah 53:10............But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting {Him} to grief; If He would render Himself {as} a guilt offering, He will see {His} offspring, He will prolong {His} days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

Fulfilled in Matthew 27:50 and Matthew 27:38

Jesus would ressurect:
Hosea 6:2................He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.

Fulfilled in Matthew 28:5-6



I would say that the authors of the NT simply twisted prophecy and applied it to thier jesus.

Farrell Till : Are you defending the way that NT writers often lifted OT statements completely out of context and tried to apply them to events of their time in order to claim prophecy fulfillment? If so, my answer is that I consider this a distortion that is literarily unsound.

-DM-

Regarding so-called Bible prophecy:
1.) Some of what is claimed by believers (both Jewish and Christian) to be Bible prophecy isn't really prophecy at all, at least not in the sense that it was intended as a prediction of future events.
2.) Some so-called Bible prophecy was written after the fact.
3.) Some Bible prophecy has been deliberately made to come true by the stroke of a pen.
4.) Some Bible prophecy which is alleged to have been fulfilled, wasn't.
5.) Some so-called Bible prophecy which is allegedly "unfolding before our eyes" is so vague and imprecise that it has always and always will be "unfolding before our eyes."

Suggested reading:

• The Fabulous Prophecies Of The Messiah by Jim Lippard
  
• Prophecies: Imaginary and Unfulfilled by Farrell Till.
  
• The Argument from the Bible by Theodore M. Drange.
  
• Jesus Was a False Prophet by me.

And there's more on the Prophecy page in the Secular Web Library.

-Don-

P.S. In order to facilitate further discussion, I have moved this from Feedback to the Biblical Criticism & History forum. Also, I'll advise Farrell Till of your question.

Farrell Till

I couldn't agree more.

I don't understand why you would think that I would defend NT distortions of OT "prophetic" statements. You must not be at all familiar with my position on biblical prophecy-fulfillment claims. I have a standing challenge for any believer in biblical prophecy to cite a single verifiable case of fulfillment.

net2002

;Hebrew scholars also remind us, gently, that the key Hebrew verbs in Isaiah 9:6 are in the past tense.



christian :Perhaps, but the Scriptures also declare that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world.

: Where exactly does Isaiah declare this? Why do these christians put words into their god’s mouth?


christian: Thus his actual death on the Cross was only a fulfillment of what had already happened in the past "before the foundation of the world".


:Isaiah was talking about his time and not 700 years later for some man-god to die on a cross.

Was the virgin birth also "before the foundation of the world"?

Rational Human

I'm new here so I will tread lightly so as to not insult anyone. First let me say that I do not fault anyone for their religious beliefs or lack of thereof.

I am aJew by birth but do not believe in the existance of god now or ever in our past yet there have been a few instance of world history where the bible played a very significant role.

Now, on to the topic at hand. The most basic and rudimentary prophecy that needs to be fulfilled is the one of Jesus' birth for without it there can be no other prophecies.

The problem with this is with the concept of the "virgin" birth and Jesus' childhood name. The Old Testament says that Jesus will be born of a virgin and that she will call him Immanuel (sp?).

Unfortunately, the original Hebrew word, Almah, is only translated once into the word virgin and only in this birth prophecy. In all other instances almah is translated into youg maide, your girl, or some other term as such. Also, the Old Testament does not anywhere say (so far as my personal reasearch tells me) that his childhood name was Immanuel.

These are just two conflictions within the Old Testament. Just about every single one of the 'prophecies" have significant conflict found in the text of the Old Testament and the New Testament. The New Testament itself is filled with conflicting stories from book to book.

It is my firm belief that Jesus was not the Messiah.

premjan

Maybe Immanuel Kant was the messiah?

Farrell Till

I realize that the statement above was probably carelessly worded, but the OT did not say that "Jesus" would be born of a virgin. It simply spoke of a "young woman" who was pregnant and would give birth to a son. Christians have appropriated this verse for their cause and applied it to Jesus, so they have the burden of proving that it was referring to Jesus.

Doctor X

No, Immanuel Kant was a real pissant who was very rarely stable. . . .

--J.D.

CX

Let me save you some time. I wouldn't respond at all. Such efforts are wasted in that the Bible is an incredibly flexible document that can be made to support nearly any position if one is willing to suspend disbelief and do some amount of mental gymnastics. Your time would be better spent reading insurance pamphlets.