noah

Absolute red herring. Sheshbazaar's statemment here illustrates the damage Paul did to xians' perception and understanding of Jesus' Laws as it relates to each of them spiritually and personally. Sheshbazaar's contempt for and misunderstanding of your own god's word is breathtaking. Kudos to Paul.
JC/Yahweh make clear over and over again that following their Laws make you righteous, make you lead a better life and bring you closer to god. If you ever actually bother to read Psalms and Deuteronomy SHeshbazaar you will see that following God's Laws makes one righteous. Deut 6:2,5,24-25
JFIY, righteous means just and upright. Just and upright people do not commit crimes and indulge in excess of any kind.

sunspark

It is and was indeed deceiving. You've taken one particular verse, which is instruction for judges when dealing with a particular crime, to apply to all people in all circumstances.

What is interesting is that your argument is to overthrow the law by virtue of it being self-contradicting. Good, I and many other Atheists would agree with you there, but that's not the subject of this discussion, which is "When and where are the OT laws repealed?"

Gamera

Drumroll please -- and the point being that NOBODY does keep all the law and nobody is righteous!

Romans 3:23 - since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Thus the term "righteousness" in all its forms is always used as a relative term when applied to a person.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; [i.e., a generation known for such sinfulness that God had to destroy the world to snuff it out -- quit a compliment!]

Except in Noah's case nobody in the OT is called righteous -- Proverbs, etc. talk about the qualities of the righteous man in the abstract, but no individual is identified as having those qualities. Why? Because nobody is rigtheous.

By the way, this is made all the more clearer by Habakkuk 2:4 which says the righteous shall live by faith -- when in fact nobody lives entirely by faith - people actually worry about causality and eating and the limitations of gravity.

Habakkuk 2:4 - Behold, he whose soul is not upright in him shall fail, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Gamera

If you are no better than somebody who doesn't follow the law, then why follow the law. And if you are better, then you are boasting by merely admitting you're better.

You are stuck on the horns of a dilemma.

No where does it say that the Law saves. It says that those who follow it can keep the land in Israel. Guess what? They didn't.

Leviticus 25:18 - "Therefore you shall do my statutes, and keep my ordinances and perform them; so you will dwell in the land securely.

All other reference to keeping the Law merely tells the Israelis to do so. Nowhere, I say again, does the Bible teach the law saves anybody.

By the way it is Jesus himself who announces the new covenant, not Paul. Why do you ignore Jesus plain words:

Luke 22:20 - And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

1 Corinthians 11:25 - In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

Gamera

This one:
Luke 22:20 - And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

And this one:

Isaiah 48:6 - "You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I make you hear new things, hidden things which you have not known

And this one:

Matthew 22: "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?" 37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." 41

[show us which of the 10 commandments or any other law says this!]

Gamera

Paul of course didn't mean this, but in fact anybody who reads Deteronomy and Leviticus can only be made dull. Placing one's salvation on such nonsense as whether or not to mix linen and cotton or cutting one's beard or not eating rabbits becuase they "chew the cud" (they don't) can only lead to dullness.

Deut 14: Every animal that parts the hoof and has the hoof cloven in two, and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. 7 Yet of those that chew the cud or have the hoof cloven you shall not eat these: the camel, the hare, and the rock badger, because they chew the cud but do not part the hoof, are unclean for you. 8

Nuwanda

I'm coming in late on this discussion, and at risk of repeating someones post, it needs to be said that the OT laws were primarily written for the nation of Israel. If you do a short study of the Levitical laws, food laws, offerings, etc, you learn very quickly that they are specifically tailored to the Jews; not just Jews, but Jews living in Israel.

A great example is the tithe. By law the tithe can only be a food offering, it can only be offered to Levitical priests, it can only be produce grown or raised in the land of Israel, and it can only be given in the land of Israel. Though the modern church employs the tithe (though they shouldn't) the tithe was never meant to be observed by non-Israelite, non-Israel dwelling people.

Many other laws from the OT have these exact specifications which make it impossible for a non-Jew to observe the law, hence the law was not written for the gentiles. This is why the apostles did not require obedience of the written law from the gentile church (Acts 15). Jesus never tells a non-Jew to keep the law. If you read the gospel accounts carefully you will see that very often Jesus is only speaking to covenant Jews, not gentiles. This makes all the difference. It was proper for Jesus before He made the atonement for sin to tell Jews living in Israel to keep the law. Now that the prophesy of the OT is fulfilled (see Isaiah 53:5 for starters: "He (Christ) was wounded for our transgressions (sins), He was bruised for our iniquities (pervertedness)...") the measure of the old covenant has been met. Since Christ took on Himself mankind's sin there is no longer a need for sacrifice and/or observance of law.

Phlox Pyros

ROTFL!!!!!! Phew...it's gotta be getting late. For some reason that was really, really funny.

seplichurs...spleplekurs...sphpleplikurs...aw...to ooooms.

Julian

LOL!

Okay, you're getting slap happy. Go to bed. I know I will (but you could answer my last PM before you do.)

Julian

Sheshbazzar

Leviticus 24:19-22 "And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor: as he has done so shall it be done unto him
Breach for a breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he has caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him."
Note than unlike the commandment in Deuteronomy 19:15-21 this is not a matter of "false witness" or perjury, or of "intent" to do harm, "as he THOUGHT to do to his neighbor" but of an actual injury that was caused without malice of forethought, and that actually took place, was not just "THOUGHT of.
It certainly appears in THIS context (Leviticus:19-22) that reciprocal punishment was NOT to be restricted to a particular crime, but to apply to every "breach" among all of the people, all of the time, and, as noah professes FOR ALL time.
unless you think noah is wrong.
Notice the verse number in RED underlined above? No comment on any "merciful" verse above? figures.