Prof

Folks,

I'm not a bible scholar by a long shot. But it's occurred to me that I have heard of/read more biblical passages describing God's violence and harm to human beings than I have for actions by Satan.

The Bible has God killing people left right and center, and making grotesque punishments for seemingly mild transgressions - the type of which, had any other entity or living person done it we would be calling the actions "Evil."

I'd like someone to fill me in a bit, if possible. Just what actions are attributed to Satan in the Bible? Does his tally of violence and harm to man come anywhere close to God's?

Much thanks,

Prof.

Jeremy Pallant

No.

Doctor X

Very little--two in the OT to my memory.

First, what the hell is "Satan." It comes from stn or an "obstacle/stumbling block" a thing you trip over. A satan is something that prevents you from doing something or impedes your attempt to do something. It could be "good" or "bad" depending on what it prevents you from doing.

Overtime--start mixing in mythology--you have the "it" become a figure.

The Genesis serpent is not "Satan." One could try to argue it is a "stumbling block" in that it causes A and E to "stumble," but I think that is stretching it. It is certainly not what would become "the Satan."

"Satan" as a figure first appears in Chronicles. There is a passage where the Chronicler rewrites an evil deed that YHWH does--makes David take a census then punishes him for taking the census. Having a deity commit evil things became less acceptable so "someone else" had to be blamed for it.

In Job, "the prosecutor/adversary" is a "Satan"--he is an agent whose job, it seems, is to test. He is not an "adversary of YHWH"--all that "fallen angel" stuff.

That is about it. There are other agents that are similar. In Exodus, "the Destroyer" gets sent to kill the kiddies. It is not clear "who" this is, but he is an agent of YHWH.

An excellent book on the development of the character is Forsyth's, The Old Enemy: Satan and the Combat Myth, Princeton University Press.

In the NT there are more references. In Mk, Satan "tests" Junior . . . and nothing else. It is hilarious that he pick up on the "obstacle" tradition when he taunts Rock-Head Peter with the "get behind me Satan!" insult. Mt and Lk expand the Satan character a tad with the temptation in the wilderness.

Anyways, to your main point, yes, indeed, El/YHWH/Elohim/Et Cetera perform more death, doom, and destruction in the Bible. This is how gods were conceived--they did good and bad.

--J.D.

Amaleq13

Forgive the tangent but this has always puzzled me. What is it about this census that pisses God off so much? Why would God have forbidden it? Actually, the real question I have is: why would the ancient Hebrews have considered this census to be forbidden by God?

Amlodhi

The general apologetic is this:

Many OT verses in the books of Kings, Chronicles and Psalms portray David as saying that the victories and security of Israel are the result of God's favor.

In I Chr. 19:13, Joab (David's army general), talking to his brother Abishai just prior to an impending battle with Syria, says: "Be of good courage, and let us behave ourselves valiantly for our people, and for the cities of our God: and let the Lord do that which is good in his sight. "

Then in I Chr. 21:3, Joab is portrayed as asking David, "Why do you require this thing (the census)?", and "Why will you cause us to trespass against the Lord?"

From this, then, it is generally considered that David, having grown strong from many victories, had forgotten the source of those victories (God) and had begun to think that the prosperity and security of Israel was in the hands of his own military strength.

Thus, David, in being concerned with calculating his military strength was thereby putting his faith in his own human abilities instead of in Israel's God.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

Amaleq13

Thanks for the "explanation".

I guess I can see where a Believer might be able to accept that but it sure seems ridiculous to me to condemn a commander of an armed force just for doing a very basic part of his job. Must be my lack of faith making this appear silly.

I keep forgetting to ask but you could PM (trying to cut down on my tangent-creation) me an explanation/definition for this? Thanks.

Doctor X

It is a traditional greeting that involves your mother and "army boots."

Anyways, as you can see to find a "reasonable explantation"--particularly when YHWH ORDERS the damn census in the first case--requires a willing suspension of critical thinking.

--J.D.

jesustapdancinchrist

I was chatting with some people in another forum yesterday about that same point. One guy was a jesus freak and refused to acknowledge the argument. I even quoted biblical passages for him. You know what he finally resorted to? "We can't know God's plan or expect to understand his ways". Typical.

Doctor X

Well, you cannot argue with that iron-clad argument. . . .

Welcome to the forums.

--J.D.

Sensei Meela

Then we can't know that God is "Good" or that "His Plan(tm)" has our best interests in mind.

Also typically, the "apologetic" (as presented by Amlodhi) totally fails to address the real issue (as mentioned by Dr. X) being raised: that is, that God orders David's census in 2 Sam. 24:1, and in verse 15 punishes David by killing -- in His great Mercy (see verse 14)-- not David, but 70,000 of his men with a plague...

To paraphrase someone (maybe a poster around here), with regards to God's evil deeds, "what villian in all of history has a record to match?"