Johnnyboy

Hey guys,

i have a question about Paul. We all know that the synopic gospels were written from about 70 AC on, that means that Paul did not know Mark, Matthew, Luke, John etc.. That goes fine with me. But basically I think I remember that there was a passage in Paul's epistels, where he talks about "writtings", and I am not sure if he reffered to the AT. Is there any passage in Pauls epistels you know, that coul lead the reader to the conclusion, that Paul knew some kind of written gospel?

robto

Nope, none I know of.

If he talks about "writings" (="scriptures" in Greek) it certainly means the Old Testament (possibly plus some "apocrypha").

Steven Avery

Hi Johny.
Sure, there most assuredly is such a verse.

1 Timothy 5:18
For the scripture saith,
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn.
And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Which, in addition to quoting Tanach for the muzzle the ox part...

Deuteronomy 25:4
Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.

Is also a quote from Luke as scripture, quoting ...

Luke 10:7
And in the same house remain,
eating and drinking such things as they give:
for the labourer is worthy of his hire.
Go not from house to house.

-- hire and reward being the same Greek word, and the phrases being almost identical .. (there is no comparable "labourer" quote in the Tanach).

Paul was quite aware that the Gospel of Luke as inspired scripture :-)

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:

And Johnny, when you say
"We all know that the synopic gospels were written from about 70 AC on" ..

That might be the view from the errantists,
but not of the believers on the forum,
at least not yours truly.

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

Julian

The pastoral epistles (1 and 2 Timothy and Titus) were not written by Paul. Any references Paul gives to scripture is to the OT.

Julian

Equinox

It does seem that all the gospels were written after paul was dead. As was pointed out already, nearly all scholars agree that 1,2Tim & Titus are 2nd century forgeries. In Paul's day the transmission of Christian doctrine was by word of mouth (hearsay). Paul gives a clear example in 1Cor 15:


Paul does extensively quote the OT, and refer to that as scripture. Note, from this passage, that Paul says he learned Christianity from someone else. Many people think Paul invented Christianity, and that idea does at least help them realize that Christianity started with someone other than Jesus (who was a fully Jewish doomsayer, who didn't seem to want anything to do with a religion about himself any more than Paul want a religion about himself).

However, this passage and others leads me to guess that Paul learned his Christianity from other Christians. We don't even know much from Paul about his "on the road to damascus" conversion, since all the details about that are recorded only by whoever wrote Luke, and he can't seem to get his story straight - again it appears based on hearsay. Paul himself only says that Jesus appeared to him. Whether that was lit up like a christmas tree, or on a tortilla, or in a bowl of oatmeal, there is no way to know.

Have a fun day-

-Equinox

ISVfan

Proof please? Or at least explain why you believe that the pastoral epistles are not written by Paul.

ISVfan

Please tell me your not assuming Paul did not write 1,2 Timothy, Titus simply because the transmission of the Christian doctrine was by word of mouth? Is it possible Paul actually wanted to make sure Timothy had some Doctines of the faith on paper. If someone forged those books they did an aweful good job keeping the style and word order the same. If you read the Bible you know each author has his own style of writing.1,2 Timothy, Titus all read like Pauls other books.

Toto

Actually, they don't. That's just one of the reasons that critics assume that they were not written by Paul. (There is a case to be made that they were written by the author of Luke-Acts as part III of a three volume set.)

Why don't you read up on the standard scholarship before you make egregious statements like that? www.earlychristianwritings.com is a good place to start.

Julian

Pick up any standard scholarly book on the issue and you will find the explanations, no need for me to rehash well known arguments here.

Julian

FatherMithras

I'm begging you, on my knees! Please go read something about what your talking about not from Bob the aplogetic who doesn't have a degree in anything other then theology. historians and the general consensus are completely against these statements and the fact your making these arguments makes you look really bad. It's like saying "Scientists don't believe in evolution anymore and there are no evidence of it!" IE creationist lies that anyone who actually researches on KNOWS are lies. Sheesh!