Sheshbazzar

It is obvious that you do not comprehend my position at all.

The 'genuine' Paul -'Shaul'- the pre-christian Pharisaic Jew, was never a 'christian' at all, never became a 'christian', and never wrote anything at all about any 'Jesus' of Nazareth, or of any place else.

Shaul was a pre-christian JEW whose writings argued against the need for, or the practice of Gentile circumcision, based entirey upon the content of the Tanaka alone. These genuine pre-christian epistles may have been written even well before any JC was even 'born'.
They had nothing to do with entrance into, or the acceptance of any 'christian' religion, but only accptance by Jews of uncircumcised Gentiles into the ONE house-hold of The Faithful, as being the Scripturally revealed will of YHWH.

A century or more latter christianity co-opted these ancient pre-christian JEWISH writings of Shaul the Hebrew, and under the pesudonym of 'Paul' revised, 'edited' and greatly expanded these writings so as to incorporate and give an air of legitmancy to late christian theological claims.
Shaul the old Hebrew JEW is not responsible for the way christian writers screwed-over what he had written. It is likely this original Shaul the Hebrew had been dead and buried for centuries before these new 'Paul's' got around to 'cooking the books' and composing their christianacceptance versions of the 'Pauline' religious texts.

Actually this accords quite well with your observations that the 'Pauline' writings were unknown by early christian writpseudonymlegitimacyers well into the 2nd century CE.
It took the developing church time to locate and 'find' ancient JEWISH writings that could be adopted and 'adapted' to give an appearance of Jewish support to the late christian theological claims.

Once they got 'Paul' talking for them, they didn't know well enough quite when to shut 'him' up., and thus 'he' ends up spouting 'answers' to complex theological questions that would only have became relevant to the church long after any genuine Paul, even a first century one, would have been long since dead and gone, well before these emerging christian theological controversies were even thought of.





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aa5874

Just give me a SOURCE for your claim about SHAUL/Paul. I am no longer interested in your imagination.

When I make a claim I SIMULTANEOUSLY provide the Source.

I expect you to do the same.

CLAIM + SOURCE.

I really have no time for UNSUPPORTED stories about your SHAUL/PAUL.

Just give CLAIM + SOURCE that is all.

andrewcriddle

It is possible that the unusual Latin word prodecessoris may mean the aforementioned i.e. the point is not that John was earlier in time than Paul but that John has previously been referred to in the Muratorian canon.

Andrew Criddle

aa5874

Please, I really don't understand you at all. The word "Predecessor" does NOT mean "aforementioned". I can't accept your unsubstantiated speculation. You cannot show that the author of the Muratorian Canon ever used the word "PREDECESSOR" to mean "aforementioned".

The author of the Canon should be expected to know the Greek word or Latin word for "aforementioned".

1. The author of the Muratorian Canon CLEARY stated the Apostle Paul IMITATED his PREDECESSOR.

2. The Church claimed Paul was AWARE of gLuke.

3. Justin Martyr claimed it was 12 illiterate men from Jerusalem who preached the Gospel to every race of man.

4. Aristides in his Apology claimed it was Twelve disciples that preached the Jesus story to the world.

5. In "Against Heresies" 2.22 the author is NOT aware of Paul and the Pauline writings.

6. Philo is NOT aware of the Pauline MESSIAH called Jesus Christ that was supposedly in Galilee and was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

7. Josephus is NOT aware that a Jewish Messianic ruler had ALREADY come and FIGHT with Jews against the Romans.

8. gMark does NOT show there was a Jewish Messiah that was KNOWN to Jews as Jesus Christ.

The abundance of evidence from antiquity does SHOW that the Pauline writings were LATE and most likely written AFTER Revelation was written.

Justin Martyr mentioned Revelation by John around the middle of the 2nd century and did NOT mention Paul at all.

I accept what is written by the author of the Muratorian Canon that the Apostle Paul IMITATED his PREDECESSOR John when he wrote to Seven Churches since it is COMPATIBLE with the evidence from other apologetic sources.

andrewcriddle

Our text of the Muratorian Canon appears to be a bad copy of a bad Latin translation of a Greek original. This causes difficulty in understanding what the original author meant.

For a detailed discussion of the Canon including the "aforementioned" suggestion see Canon Muratorianus by Tregelles.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller

Wow Andrew taking all that time to make a point that is sure to be misunderstood or ignored. Tempora vasto ...

aa5874

The translators of the Muratorian Canon wrote PREDECESSOR so that must be what they understood.

I cannot accept your unsubstantiated speculation.

You MUST show that the Latin or Greek word for PREDECESSOR and IMITATED is NOT correct as translated by MULTIPLE translators.

Kenneth Johnson's translation of the Muratorian Glenn Davis' translation of the Muratorian Bruce Metzger's translation of the Muratorian Roberts-Donaldson's translation of the Muratorian Theron's translation of the Muratorian
I REJECT your unsubstantiated claim since ALL five translations use the english word "predecessor".

The Pauline epistles to the seven churches are imitations of Paul's PREDECESSOR John based on the Muratorian Canon.

Sheshbazzar

Romans 4:1-14. No Jebus is mentioned, and no was Jebus needed for Shaul the Pharisaic Jew to make that argument.

Hundreds of verses of OT Scripture support the view that the day would come when the Gentile 'nations' (they of the uncircumcision) would all come to worship YHWH along with the people (they 'of the circumcision') Judah and Israel.

With the Jewish religion, one undergoes circumcision to become a Jew, and if one becomes a Jew, one is no longer a 'Gentile'.
Circumcision of Gentile believers in YHWH, the Elohim of the Hebrews, and of the Jewish religion, therefor would be an act contrary the revealed will of YHWH, within both The Law and within The Prophets where He has made explicit promises and provisions for the Gentile 'nations', that they would be recieved by Him and worship along with His chosen people Israel. (This is a theme that is continued right through the Book of Revelation_ read about 'the nations')
These Scriptures would be counterviened if circumcision were a prerequsit to Divine acceptance of Gentile believers. All of whom would, through circumcision, become Jews, thus excluding Gentiles, Making YHWH's Promises void.

mountainman

What if Justin Martyr's knowledge was simply incomplete? For example, what if Justin's source was Marcion of Sinope, and the latter had simply forgotten to CC Justin with the official copies of Paul's letters to various churches and various other writers?

aa5874

What if the evidence is just as it states? I can ONLY present what is written.

Even in court trials people SWEAR to tell the truth but what if they LIE and the jurors don't find out?

The Church writers and apologetic sources LEFT written statements and these can be used against them.

The Pauline Messiah cannot be accounted for in non-apologetic sources. Josephus himself with the Jews FOUGHT against the Romans Expecting a Messianic ruler c 70 CE and yet some writer and evangelist called Paul, a JEW and Pharisee was supposedly ALL over the Roman Empire in MAJOR Cities telling the people of the Roman Empire that a resurrected Jewish Man was the END of the LAW and Had a NAME ABOVE every name in the Roman Empire even ABOVE the DEIFIED Emperors of Rome.

How could such a Jewish Messiah, the Pauline Messiah, pass UNNOTICED by JEWISH and Roman writers?

The answer is so simple.

The Pauline story is FAKE and FRAUD.

When the author of gMark wrote his Phantom story the Jews did NOT know of a Messiah called Jesus.

Jesus was dead before he was called Messiah.

The Pauline Messiah is improbable.

There is NO such thing as a Posthumous Jewish Messiah.

The Pauline writings are products of Fraud and Fiction.