Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 03-18-2012, 07:58 PM

Quote:

When we got to Ascalon, we took him to the blessed and holy Dionysius, the bishop of that city and told him what had happened to our brother on the way. The holy and admirable Dionysius was astonished at being told of such a new and unheard of miracle, and called all the clergy together to tell them the whole matter and decide whether pouring of sand over this brother should be considered a true Baptism or not. Some said it ought to be because of the unheard of greatness of the miracle; others disagreed.

"No," they said, "because Gregory the Theologian has already listed the various forms which Baptism might take, saying: 'Firstly Moses baptised in water, in the cloud and in the sea. Secondly, John baptised, not as a Jewish Baptism, but with water and repentance. Thirdly Jesus baptised, but with the Holy Spirit, and that was the perfect Baptism. I also recognise a fourth - that is, in the blood of martyrdom, and a fifth, the Baptism of tears.' So much for Gregory; with which of these, therefore," they asked, "was this person baptised, that we may confirm there to have been a genuine Baptism? Especially in view of what the Lord said to Nicodemus: 'Except you are baptised with water and the Spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'" (John 3.5)

"What then?" others said. "It is not written that the apostles were baptised. Did they not enter the kingdom of God?"

"They were baptised," argued others on the contrary. "For Clement Stromateus notes in Hypotyposeon 5 that Christ is said to have baptised Peter only, but Peter baptised Andrew, and James and John, and they baptised the rest of them."

These arguments and many others having been aired, it seemed good to the blessed Dionysius to send the brother to the Jordan to be baptised there, and the student he ordained to the diaconate. [Vitae Patrum Book X Chapter CLXXVI]

Does anyone have John Moschus's Spiritual Meadow? This is a slightly different report regarding Clement's reference in the Hypotyposeis. There is no allusion to 1 Corinthians 1:14. I want to compare the context of the statements. http://www.vitae-patrum.org.uk/page2.html

stephan huller · 03-18-2012, 08:45 PM

I see that Book Ten is based on John Moschus's work as translated into Latin by Ambrosius Camaldulensis. Yet why doesn't he mention the reference to 1 Corinthians 1:14 here? An error? Or an alternative manuscript?

stephan huller · 03-18-2012, 09:20 PM

Yet I see 1 Corinthians 1:14 does appear in this Latin text of the Vitae Patrum:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jnH...nto%22&f=false

Huon · 03-19-2012, 01:56 AM

You could have a look at the site ot newadvent, (catholic encyclopedia), the page concerning St Paul the Hermit (listed in P, Paul...). The story is speaking of centaurs and satyrs, instead of (ordinary

) demons.

Very very reliable. Almost historical.

The Golden Legend by Jacobus de Voragine could be another good source.

andrewcriddle · 03-19-2012, 06:42 AM

I think that the reference to 1 Corinthians 1:14 in John Moschus' account of Clement's Hypotyposeis is part of the citation, not part of the Clementine quote itself.

Moschus writes For in explaining the saying of the Apostle "I give thanks that I baptized no one of you" he [Clement] says....

We know that the Hypotyposeis was a work of scriptural commentary. Moschus means that Clement's account of Jesus baptizing Peter is found in book 5 of the Hypotyposeis in the section commenting on 1 Corinthians 1:14.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 03-19-2012, 07:41 AM

Thank you Andrew. That makes sense.

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03-18-2012, 08:45 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I see that Book Ten is based on John Moschus's work as translated into Latin by Ambrosius Camaldulensis. Yet why doesn't he mention the reference to 1 Corinthians 1:14 here? An error? Or an alternative manuscript?

03-18-2012, 09:20 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Yet I see 1 Corinthians 1:14 does appear in this Latin text of the Vitae Patrum: http://books.google.com/books?id=jnH...nto%22&f=false

03-19-2012, 01:56 AM	#4
Huon Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bordeaux France Posts: 2,796	You could have a look at the site ot newadvent, (catholic encyclopedia), the page concerning St Paul the Hermit (listed in P, Paul...). The story is speaking of centaurs and satyrs, instead of (ordinary ) demons. Very very reliable. Almost historical. The Golden Legend by Jacobus de Voragine could be another good source.

03-19-2012, 06:42 AM	#5
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	I think that the reference to 1 Corinthians 1:14 in John Moschus' account of Clement's Hypotyposeis is part of the citation, not part of the Clementine quote itself. Moschus writes For in explaining the saying of the Apostle "I give thanks that I baptized no one of you" he [Clement] says.... We know that the Hypotyposeis was a work of scriptural commentary. Moschus means that Clement's account of Jesus baptizing Peter is found in book 5 of the Hypotyposeis in the section commenting on 1 Corinthians 1:14. Andrew Criddle

03-19-2012, 07:41 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Thank you Andrew. That makes sense.

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