Peter Kirby

This issue came up on B-Greek.

Jn 21:3. Simon Peter said to them, "I am going fishing." ...
Jn 21:10. Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you just caught."
Jn 21:11. So Simon Peter went over and dragged the net ashore full of one hundred and fifty three large fish. ...
Jn 21:15. When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" ...

While gramatically "these" could be almost anything (some suggest "more than these disciples [do love me]"), for the moment I will agree with the suggestion that it refers to the fish that are the focus of the last dozen verses.

What would it mean for Peter to love fish more than Jesus? What is the clue of the number 153? (And, other than to emphasize the miraculous catch and that the net doesn't break, is there any reason they are called "large" fish?)

Gospel of Thomas 8 tells the parable of the wise fisherman, who selects the large fish and throws away the small fish. What are the fish in the Gospel of Thomas?

Are they not disciples, discipuli? The wise fisherman selects the one with knowledge, the Gnostic, in the Gospel of Thomas. In the catholic Gospel of John, 153 large fish are taken in to the net.

153 is a triangular number, as well as being the gematria of "the magdalene," as well as being the divisor in the quotient of the fish (265:153), but the best explanation seems to be Jerome's, traceable to Oppianus Cilix e.g., that there were thought to be 153 species of fish; and, likewise, that the church universal embraces all the nations.

Is Jesus saying "if you love me more than the disciples [fish], then, tend my disciples [sheep]"? Is Jesus asking about a misplaced love for Jesus, that ought to be redirected to the disciples?

But, while this may be plausible, the alternate interpretation of "these" rears its head: "Simon, do you love me more than these [other disciples do love me]?" And if the latter is meant, does it not presuppose the verse Mark 14:29//Matthew 26:33, "even though all should have their faith shaken mine will not be"? Either the author of the Johannine appendix was writing to supplement the known Synoptic Gospels, or this scene was first attached to the Gospel of Mark.

What do you think? Is Jesus asking whether Simon loves him more than fish, or more than the others do love Jesus?

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Peter Kirby

Clivedurdle

The sermons I have heard on this have all said more than the other disciples.

The fish and 153 though are definitely worth exploring further! Might it be a double entendre, a gnostic game of a hidden meaning and a plain meaning?

Jabu Khan

Or it could just mean do you love the wisdom and guidance I give you more than the sustenance and pride derived from the fish.

dzim77

Interesting

One possibility - after his great failure of denying Jesus, Peter has returned to his previous way of life as a fisherman. Basically, he threw in the towel after his humilating fall. However, Jesus had already called Peter out of this profession in order that he may become a 'fisher of men'. Perhaps Jesus is asking Peter whether he is ready to once again leave his life as a fisherman and begin anew the ministry of the gospel. "Are you gonna be a fisherman, or are you gonna be a fisher of men?" -or- "do you love me more than these fish?"... if so... "feed my sheep". Jesus is reinstating Peter, calling him -once again- out of his current lifestyle into a life of ministry.

As to the 153 fish. Perhaps Peter was sheepishly avoiding Jesus due to his embarassment so he went off on his own to count fish?
Actually, I think the number was included to emphasize the miraculous catch... wouldn't an enterprising fisherman count his catch?

That's though. I lean toward "these" meaning "anyone else". Peter was so confident in his love and commitment to Jesus. In order for Jesus to restore Peter, he had to 'reopen the wound' before he could heal it. "Peter, do you really love me more than all these other guys, like you said you did." Peter is left to acknowledge that he did not love Jesus as much as he once confidently asserted, but that there is still a genuine love for him remaining. (Peter, do you 'agape' me? Yes Lord, you know I 'fileo' you)

But the idea that Jesus is referring to the fish, I have not heard before. Interesting to ponder.

gstafleu

153 is a Pythagorean triangular number. The story itself is copied from a Pythagorean legend. Pythagoras (in the legend at least) was a vegetarian. He comes upon some fishers who have just caught a bunch of fish. Being a good vegetarian, he then wants to save the fish. So he asks the fishers: "If I tell you the exact numbert of fish you have just caught, will you let them go?" the fishers agree. Pythagoras accurately tells them they have caught 153 fishes. The fishers let the fishes go, who all swim happily away. the latter is emphasized as miraculous, because they had been out of the water for a while.

All this from one of Robert prices books, from memory.

So in the Pythagorean setting mentioning the exact number makes sense. Does it in John? As Price remarks, the disciples have just been miraculously visited by the resurrected Jesus, so they react with "Just a moment while we count all these here fish"?

Gerard Stafleu

spin

Umm, Peter, if Mary asks you "do you love me more than Kim?" is that a question about your love of Kim or Kim's love of Mary?


spin

Peter Kirby

Grammatically, it's ambiguous. But I would suppose the former (do I love her more or Kim more), if only because I can't be expected to know how much Kim loves Mary.

--
Peter Kirby

neilgodfrey

didn't some early christians eat fish as a eucharist symbol of the body of christ?

did that mean they found a way to avoid the dilemma posed by the question?


Neil Godfrey

http://vridar.wordpress.com

Thomas II

I also had never heard that it could relate to the fish, but now that you mention this alternative, it makes perfect sense.
"These" would be not just the fish there, but also "fishing", the lifestyle.
Jesus was asking Peter if his heart was more into being a fisherman than in becoming a leader of his followers...

ynquirer

If one accepts that genitive toutôn may play the direct object of verb agapaô, then there is a third possibility, viz. that the genitive designates the other disciples. Thus, the question would turn into, “Do you love me more than (you love) these (the other disciples)?”