aa5874

But, aren't you now contradicting yourself?

You are showing that gMARK has no Pauline influence which supports my position that the gospels preceeded Paul.


Based on the church writers gMatthew was written first followed by gMark, and once we can find an author who mentioned the gospel story without making any mention of Paul at all, then these are good indicators that the writer Paul did not preceed them.

There is Justin Martyr who mentioned the memoirs called gospels but never did write about Paul.

Petergdi

I'd check Jacob Neusner for an account of the Pharisees. It is more than a little tricky wading through primary sources oneself to see what is what. You have to be careful in getting a picture of them from the Gospels in much the same way as you have to be careful in getting a picture of the Jesuits from Pascal's Provincial Letters. (Actually I think that analogy is particularly apt.)


And only once to say that he was one in regard to the law.


That doesn't make them pro-rome in any sense. When you are a visitor, you obey the local authorities except when doing so would violate your conscience. If you are a Christian, you are a visitor even in the land of your birth.

Peter

Petergdi

The obvious in-story reference is to the "you have heard" and "But I say to you" pairs.
Of course this doesn't in any sense "abolish the law", but he does say he isn't doing that.

More broadly, and already present in Mark, there is Jesus's attack on the tradition of the elders which Jesus doesn't see as part of the law, but others do.

Because it is the introduction to that part of the discourse where he explains how he is really stricter than the Scribes and Pharisees.

Those teachers say I reject the law and the prophets because I reject their traditions. But I'm not rejecting the law- I'm getting the law right. They make the law loose where it suits them - I require the whole thing. If you only have their kind of righteousness then you don't really have righteousness at all.

Peter.

Loomis

No. I’m not contradicting myself.

See?

I’m not contradicting myself.

It looks to me like Matthew and Luke depend on Mark. It looks to me like Luke and Matthew added the shit about ‘calling on the name of the Lord’ after Mark was written. And if so then that raises the question – why did they do it? What was their inspiration? What was their influence?

It looks to me like the chronology might go like this:

Early Mark -> Early Paul -> Luke -> Matthew.

Now that you know that I am not contradicting myself how will you respond?

Loomis

But in the other thread you are arguing that the church writers are completely bogus:
See?

You are the one flaunting contradictions.

Not me.

That makes me better than you.

Why should anyone respect you?

Amaleq13 is right. I’ve changed my mind about both of you.

aa5874

Do you understand the difference between a bogus history and a list of gospel writers?

It is a fact that the church writers placed gMatthew first, however the stories about Jesus in gMatthew are fiction, implausible and in some instances virtually impossible.

The information about Achilles in Homer's Achilles is fiction but that does not alter the fact that Homer's writing on Achilles preceeded those of gMatthew on Jesus.

Now, it is my view that the gospel and the gospels were known by the writer called Paul and that the history of Jesus, the disciples and Paul are fictitious or bogus.

Based on Justin Martyr, the gospel and gospels was already known up to the middle of the 2nd century, but Justin appeared to be completely unaware of Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline letters.

Justin Martyr's writings up to the middle of the 2nd century show no awareness of post-ascension activities of the disciples, including the day of Pentecost, talking in tongues, the conversion of Paul and the letters to the seven churches.

Justin Martyr made specific references by name of most of his sources, only THE MEMOIRS CALLED GOSPELS, a revelation by John and the Acts of Pilate were named in respect to events found in the NT.

The Memoirs of the Apostles contain passages found in today's gMatthew, gMark and gLuke.

Not a single passage at all was quoted by Justin from Acts of the Apostles or the Pauline letters. Nothing.

Paul was absolutely aware of the gospel stories, he was a fiction writer living sometime long after Justin Martyr.

Loomis

Where does Paul depend on Matthew?

Where does Paul depend on Luke?

Where does Paul depend on John?

Show us.

Amaleq13

When the list of gospel writers is part of that "bogus history", no. Explain it to me.

It is a fact you have asserted the church writers wrote fiction and "erroneous information about the date of writing of the Gospels" so why are you considering them reliable for this claim?

Yes, you have made your faith in this dogma as clear as your inability to defend it with any credible evidence or logical argument. Who do you imagine is unfamiliar with your sermon so that you need to keep repeating it?

Marcion used Paul to support his claims.

Justin opposed Marcion.

How would Justin accomplish that without having any knowledge of Paul?

Ah, back to preaching your flawed sermon!

Keep the faith, Father. It is easier than formulating a coherent argument.:thumbs:

aa5874

Once you admit that gMark preceeded Paul you have falied in your bid to show that Paul preceeded the gospels.

The gospel story in gMark is more than enough for Paul to claim that Jesus was betrayed, crucified, died, rose on the third day, and ascended to heaven. More than enough for Paul to claim that he spoke in tongues as promised ONLY in the interpolated ending of gMark.

Loomis

Maybe you have me confused with someone else. I never bid that Paul preceded the gospels. I bid that Paul preceded Matthew. You can tell because Matthew bashed him in 5:19.

Paul:

we have been released from the law

a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Matthew:

not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished

whoever practices the law will be called great in the kingdom of heaven

See?