Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jgoodguy · 10-26-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

The New Testament endorses the law of the Old Testament regarding tithes in Hebrews 7, even mentioning 10% ("a tenth part of all") [emphases are added]:

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

This is a repetition of OT history not a commandment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

So all of you who have posted so far are just wrong. Live with it, and next time, don't say that something isn't there when a very simple search for the relevant word turns it up quickly (in this case, the word "tithe" in the King James Version). You can easily search the Bible online at several places, including:

http://www.bible.com/

Of course, the Bible, being bullshit, is something that should be ignored when deciding what to do, but if one were to follow it, even just the New Testament, one would tithe.

I could also have gone for the more generic endorsement of all of the laws of the Old Testament, supposedly from Jesus himself, as reported in Matthew 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I might also add that it would be perverse for the laws to change anyway, as that would suggest that God was wrong before when they were originally enacted.

The problem with this is that when Jesus died, the " all be fulfilled" clause kicked in negating the OT law.

Bottom line no tithing in the NT required especially of Gentile Christians.

The usual representations and warranties that it all probably fiction.

Pyrrho · 10-26-2010, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jgoodguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

The New Testament endorses the law of the Old Testament regarding tithes in Hebrews 7, even mentioning 10% ("a tenth part of all") [emphases are added]:

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

This is a repetition of OT history not a commandment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyrrho

So all of you who have posted so far are just wrong. Live with it, and next time, don't say that something isn't there when a very simple search for the relevant word turns it up quickly (in this case, the word "tithe" in the King James Version). You can easily search the Bible online at several places, including:

http://www.bible.com/

Of course, the Bible, being bullshit, is something that should be ignored when deciding what to do, but if one were to follow it, even just the New Testament, one would tithe.

I could also have gone for the more generic endorsement of all of the laws of the Old Testament, supposedly from Jesus himself, as reported in Matthew 5:

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I might also add that it would be perverse for the laws to change anyway, as that would suggest that God was wrong before when they were originally enacted.

The problem with this is that when Jesus died, the " all be fulfilled" clause kicked in negating the OT law.

Bottom line no tithing in the NT required especially of Gentile Christians.

The usual representations and warranties that it all probably fiction.

Since heaven and earth have not passed, and not all has been fulfilled, it is still in effect. The prophecies of the Bible have not all been fulfilled, as the second coming has not yet occurred, among other things.

1 Thessalonians 4:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Or are you saying that that has already happened, along with all the crazy-ass shit in Revelations? If not, then all has not been fulfilled, and consequently, according to Jesus, the law is still in effect down to the smallest detail. Christians are always trying to weasel out of what is said in Matthew 5, but it is pretty clear what it means.

Of course, if they would just reject the silly book as the writings of a primitive and savage people, which is what it is, they would be far better off. But instead they pretend to follow it when they clearly do not.

Rusty Venture · 10-26-2010, 08:54 PM

Thanks everyone, and especially thanks to Pyrrho. The info you provided pretty much shoots down my hope that I could use a Bibilical argument to try and convince someone to not tithe.

Oh well.

Chili · 10-26-2010, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

Thanks everyone, and especially thanks to Pyrrho. The info you provided pretty much shoots down my hope that I could use a Bibilical argument to try and convince someone to not tithe.

Oh well.

Tithing is about time spend in self reflection and contemplating our destiny and giving money to the church is a cop-out and the worst thing one could ever do.

Transient · 10-26-2010, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

Actually, the title says it all. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks.

Edited to add: New Testament references are what I'm looking for. I'm really trying to convince someone that their Christian church asking for 10% of their gross paycheck is a bullshit burden no one should have to bear.

Again, thanks.

If someone believes that the bible is the word of god then the whole can of worms is open. Just about anyone with some slant on christian things can find support for their ideas in the bible and others will find opposing ideas.
Arguing amongst christians about doctrinal matters etc is a dead end street going no-where - a no-win thing.
The bible is a terrible document to try and form some solid concepts from, tithing is just one of them, there are so many others its just not funny.
Once someone is in a church group and they like the social group of people around them then they will swallow whatever doctrines are put before them because they can all be defended and attacked from the bible.
It is a total sham.

Chili · 10-26-2010, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

Actually, the title says it all. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks.

Edited to add: New Testament references are what I'm looking for. I'm really trying to convince someone that their Christian church asking for 10% of their gross paycheck is a bullshit burden no one should have to bear.

Again, thanks.

If someone believes that the bible is the word of god then the whole can of worms is open. Just about anyone with some slant on christian things can find support for their ideas in the bible and others will find opposing ideas.
Arguing amongst christians about doctrinal matters etc is a dead end street going no-where - a no-win thing.
The bible is a terrible document to try and form some solid concepts from, tithing is just one of them, there are so many others its just not funny.
Once someone is in a church group and they like the social group of people around them then they will swallow whatever doctrines are put before them because they can all be defended and attacked from the bible.
It is a total sham.

. . . but religion is not a social club.

judge · 10-26-2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty Venture

Actually, the title says it all. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks.

Edited to add: New Testament references are what I'm looking for. I'm really trying to convince someone that their Christian church asking for 10% of their gross paycheck is a bullshit burden no one should have to bear.

Again, thanks.

The verse I heard over and over and over again, was from Malachi. The one where god says that ppl are robbing him by not paying tithes.
Pastors always made sure to read this one every service before the basket went around.

Quote:

8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

Transient · 10-27-2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

If someone believes that the bible is the word of god then the whole can of worms is open. Just about anyone with some slant on christian things can find support for their ideas in the bible and others will find opposing ideas.
Arguing amongst christians about doctrinal matters etc is a dead end street going no-where - a no-win thing.
The bible is a terrible document to try and form some solid concepts from, tithing is just one of them, there are so many others its just not funny.
Once someone is in a church group and they like the social group of people around them then they will swallow whatever doctrines are put before them because they can all be defended and attacked from the bible.
It is a total sham.

. . . but religion is not a social club.

That is exactly what religion is.

mountainman · 10-27-2010, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

'Saint' Peter, the First 'Godfather' of the Mafia. No wonder 'ol Pete, escaping trial for extortion and murder, is said to have moved on to Rome Italy to continue and expand the 'family business'.

The transcendental 'Saint' Peter was promoted in Rome by the very real thug Damasius, who's army had fought and won a running battle in the streets of Rome with other competing thugs to see who would become Bishop of Rome, in the years after Julian's death.

In regard to tithing, I see the following commands of Jesus to his followers as related to this issue of tithing - namely: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's". When Caesar owned Jesus's official state church, Caesar owned the official state tithings. Jesus was a good front PR man.

mountainman · 10-27-2010, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chili

. . . but religion is not a social club.

:rolling:

okestick: :rolling:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Transient

That is exactly what religion is.

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10-26-2010, 08:54 PM	#13
Rusty Venture Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,296	Thanks everyone, and especially thanks to Pyrrho. The info you provided pretty much shoots down my hope that I could use a Bibilical argument to try and convince someone to not tithe. Oh well.

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