Freethought & Rationalism Archive

bpelta · 07-25-2010, 03:46 PM

If I google "Richard Elliott Friedman," the sixth match I come up with is an attempted refutation of Who Wrote the Bible by Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb. I plan to go through all this more thoroughly soon but for now -- being relatively ignorant of Bible criticism myself -- I was curious what y'all thought of his arguments. You can find his arguments on his website in a couple of articles he wrote and on a mp3 of a class he gave (I don't have 5 posts yet, so the forum won't let me post links)

Toto · 07-25-2010, 05:07 PM

Who Wrote the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk)

In Dovid Gottblieb on Who Wrote The Bible I read:

Quote:

Pp.17-19: In describing objections to the traditional view that Moses wrote the Five Books, Friedman includes statements “that Moses was not likely to have said,” – e.g. the statement that Moses was the humblest of all men - and the fact that Moses is referred to in the third person. But these objections ignore the real traditional view that the author of the Five Books is G-d. It is not Moses writing his own story, but G-d telling Moses story. Thus referring Moses in the third person is fully appropriate, and there is no failure of humility on Moses part in G-d’s writing that he was humble.

I'll stop here. Dovid Gottlieb approaches this as a practicing, believing, Orthodox Jew. It is a different mindset.

stephan huller · 07-25-2010, 05:31 PM

As an aside, don't you hate it when you go to a Jewish site and they put that hyphen between the g and the d? Like what's that all about?

I can see that they don't want to say YHWH and because of all the problems that happened with that Rumpelstiltskin fellow but what do they think is going to happen if they spell the word 'God' at a page at their site? I thought they believed that only Hebrew had efficacy.

I think they should go back to referring to their god as PIPI. They'll get a lot of respect in America telling everyone that PIPI only loves Israel, or that PIPI demands all males to be circumcised or that PIPI will judge the world at the resurrection of the dead.

It's amazing what two thousand years will do to a couple of letters. HEHE is even worse. It looks like a laugh from a Warner Brothers cartoon.

Anyway I guess I am becoming too familiar with everyone here ...

semiopen · 07-26-2010, 06:06 AM

I'll look into this more myself, but recall his criticism is that Friedman is too liberal which is outrageous. For example, Friedman suggests that the J source was written in David's court by a woman. My own humble opinion is that it probably wasn't written by a woman, and it certainly wasn't written in King's David time.

Classical religious people point out that the flaws in the documentary hypothesis is evidence that their own interpretation is correct. In this guy's case, this is undoubtedly that the Pentateuch was written by Moses, etc.

This is an untenable position, which is why people with these views are very rare in academia.

semiopen · 07-26-2010, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

As an aside, don't you hate it when you go to a Jewish site and they put that hyphen between the g and the d? Like what's that all about?

I can see that they don't want to say YHWH and because of all the problems that happened with that Rumpelstiltskin fellow but what do they think is going to happen if they spell the word 'God' at a page at their site? I thought they believed that only Hebrew had efficacy.

I think they should go back to referring to their god as PIPI. They'll get a lot of respect in America telling everyone that PIPI only loves Israel, or that PIPI demands all males to be circumcised or that PIPI will judge the world at the resurrection of the dead.

It's amazing what two thousand years will do to a couple of letters. HEHE is even worse. It looks like a laugh from a Warner Brothers cartoon.

Anyway I guess I am becoming too familiar with everyone here ...

Also weird is saying Hashem instead of Adonai and substituting K for H as in Elokim.

The construct Adonai YHWH (read Adonai Elohim) also occurs in older books once in a while (1st Isaiah for example) this can be interpreted as pre-exilic. Books where this doesn't appear seem to be post exilic

A little question:

Isaiah 1:13

Quote:

Bring no more vain offerings. Incense is an abomination to me; new moons, Sabbaths (veshabat), and convocations: I can't bear with evil assemblies.

Is there a view the Sabbath is a later addition?

stephan huller · 07-26-2010, 08:00 AM

Many have argued the rest on the seventh day is Babylonian in origin. I haven't run across the argument that the Jews only picked up the Sabbath in Babylonia but I am sure someone has suggested in print somewhere

semiopen · 07-26-2010, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Many have argued the rest on the seventh day is Babylonian in origin. I haven't run across the argument that the Jews only picked up the Sabbath in Babylonia but I am sure someone has suggested in print somewhere

Thanks.

It is very unusual to see Shabbat mentioned in the pre exilic prophets.

2 King 4:23

Quote:

He said, "Why would you want go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath."

which I think is post exilic. 1 Isaiah is considered pre-Exilic.

Was hoping someone had knowledge of this but probably it will build my character if I look into it myself.

charles · 07-27-2010, 10:42 PM

What about sacrifices? Are they original to Judaism?

Iskander · 07-28-2010, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles

What about sacrifices? Are they original to Judaism?

No

charles · 07-30-2010, 03:26 PM

Then how did they enter the religion?

07-25-2010, 03:46 PM	#1
bpelta Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: MA. Posts: 17	Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb & Biblical Criticism If I google "Richard Elliott Friedman," the sixth match I come up with is an attempted refutation of Who Wrote the Bible by Rabbi Dovid Gottlieb. I plan to go through all this more thoroughly soon but for now -- being relatively ignorant of Bible criticism myself -- I was curious what y'all thought of his arguments. You can find his arguments on his website in a couple of articles he wrote and on a mp3 of a class he gave (I don't have 5 posts yet, so the forum won't let me post links)

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07-25-2010, 05:31 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	As an aside, don't you hate it when you go to a Jewish site and they put that hyphen between the g and the d? Like what's that all about? I can see that they don't want to say YHWH and because of all the problems that happened with that Rumpelstiltskin fellow but what do they think is going to happen if they spell the word 'God' at a page at their site? I thought they believed that only Hebrew had efficacy. I think they should go back to referring to their god as PIPI. They'll get a lot of respect in America telling everyone that PIPI only loves Israel, or that PIPI demands all males to be circumcised or that PIPI will judge the world at the resurrection of the dead. It's amazing what two thousand years will do to a couple of letters. HEHE is even worse. It looks like a laugh from a Warner Brothers cartoon. Anyway I guess I am becoming too familiar with everyone here ...

07-26-2010, 06:06 AM	#4
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	I'll look into this more myself, but recall his criticism is that Friedman is too liberal which is outrageous. For example, Friedman suggests that the J source was written in David's court by a woman. My own humble opinion is that it probably wasn't written by a woman, and it certainly wasn't written in King's David time. Classical religious people point out that the flaws in the documentary hypothesis is evidence that their own interpretation is correct. In this guy's case, this is undoubtedly that the Pentateuch was written by Moses, etc. This is an untenable position, which is why people with these views are very rare in academia.

07-26-2010, 08:00 AM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Many have argued the rest on the seventh day is Babylonian in origin. I haven't run across the argument that the Jews only picked up the Sabbath in Babylonia but I am sure someone has suggested in print somewhere

07-27-2010, 10:42 PM	#8
charles Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Midwest Posts: 94	What about sacrifices? Are they original to Judaism?

07-30-2010, 03:26 PM	#10
charles Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Midwest Posts: 94	Then how did they enter the religion?

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