Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CarmStephanieE · 01-04-2010, 10:52 AM

When comparing 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1, christians give some very strange explainations for the apparent Satan/God problem in this story.
I saw this in a thread in a christian forum, and was hoping some here would have more information.

Deus Ex · 01-04-2010, 11:11 AM

I believe Chronicles was written much later than the book of Samuel. Belief in Satan as an arch-rival of God's was more developed by the later time period.

IOW, Jewish monotheism was influenced after the Babylonian exile by Persian Zoroastrian belief in two opposing powers in heaven--one good, one evil. The earlier writings would have reflected a more monotheistic belief.

John Kesler · 01-04-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarmStephanieE

When comparing 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1, christians give some very strange explainations for the apparent Satan/God problem in this story.
I saw this in a thread in a christian forum, and was hoping some here would have more information.

The Satan/God problem isn't the only discrepancy between the passages. Maybe you can tell us what are the explanations that you've heard from Christians, and we can comment further.

Toto · 01-04-2010, 11:30 AM

This is a contradiction in the Bible. Since Christians are made uncomfortable by contradictions and inconsistencies, they have spilled a lot of pixels over the issue, but for non believers, it's just another contradiction, one of a laundry list of contradictions that show that the Bible was written at different times by people with different points of view.

Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary notes:

Quote:

Did God or Satan incite David to take a census?

Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1).

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Archer (Archer[*] 1982, 186-188) explains away this discrepancy by proposing that both God and Satan were involved in inciting David to take the census. For example, just as God and Satan participated together in Job's testings—God intending them ultimately for good and Satan for evil—so both God and David were involved in David's decision to take the census. But if Archer wishes to implicate God in these affairs, he must acknowledge that God is involved in tempting his children, contrary to James 1:14, which states that God does not tempt anyone. Some may prefer to use the word testing rather than tempting, but given the context of David's census (which was considered a sin), is there any practical difference between the two words? Whether we choose to say "test," "incite," or "tempt," it's all the same. What comfort is James 1:14 to us if God can in fact "incite" or "test" us, and we, like David, can end up failing the test?

* Archer, Gleason. 1982. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (or via: amazon.co.uk). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan

rhutchin · 01-04-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This is a contradiction in the Bible. Since Christians are made uncomfortable by contradictions and inconsistencies, they have spilled a lot of pixels over the issue, but for non believers, it's just another contradiction, one of a laundry list of contradictions that show that the Bible was written at different times by people with different points of view.

Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary notes:

Quote:

Did God or Satan incite David to take a census?

Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah" (2 Samuel 24:1).

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel (1 Chronicles 21:1).

Archer (Archer[*] 1982, 186-188) explains away this discrepancy by proposing that both God and Satan were involved in inciting David to take the census. For example, just as God and Satan participated together in Job's testings—God intending them ultimately for good and Satan for evil—so both God and David were involved in David's decision to take the census. But if Archer wishes to implicate God in these affairs, he must acknowledge that God is involved in tempting his children, contrary to James 1:14, which states that God does not tempt anyone. Some may prefer to use the word testing rather than tempting, but given the context of David's census (which was considered a sin), is there any practical difference between the two words? Whether we choose to say "test," "incite," or "tempt," it's all the same. What comfort is James 1:14 to us if God can in fact "incite" or "test" us, and we, like David, can end up failing the test?

* Archer, Gleason. 1982. Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (or via: amazon.co.uk). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan

The usual explanation is that God ordains all that happens but is not the cause of all that happens. Thus, while Satan incites David to number Israel (and thereby to sin), it is God who has the ultimate say in whether to allow this temptation to proceed or stop it in its tracks. God allows Satan to tempt David but prompts Joab to protest the action giving David the opportunity to back off from his sinful action. David declines to back off.

To the Christian, Satan is the instigator of the census by David and tempts him to sin, but Satan can only do that which God allows. Had David been thinking clearly, he would have called for Gad, his seer, and asked him to inquire of God whether he should do the census.

The Bible clearly indicates that God will allow people to be tempted yet promises that, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

MarkA · 01-04-2010, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This is a contradiction in the Bible. Since Christians are made uncomfortable by contradictions and inconsistencies, they have spilled a lot of pixels over the issue, but for non believers, it's just another contradiction, one of a laundry list of contradictions that show that the Bible was written at different times by people with different points of view.

Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary notes:

The usual explanation is that God ordains all that happens but is not the cause of all that happens. Thus, while Satan incites David to number Israel (and thereby to sin), it is God who has the ultimate say in whether to allow this temptation to proceed or stop it in its tracks. God allows Satan to tempt David but prompts Joab to protest the action giving David the opportunity to back off from his sinful action. David declines to back off.

To the Christian, Satan is the instigator of the census by David and tempts him to sin, but Satan can only do that which God allows. Had David been thinking clearly, he would have called for Gad, his seer, and asked him to inquire of God whether he should do the census.

The Bible clearly indicates that God will allow people to be tempted yet promises that, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

2 Samuel 24:1 says the Lord was angry and the Lord incited David to this act. How does this reconcilewith your apology?

CarmStephanieE · 01-04-2010, 04:05 PM

Glad to hear the feedback here. Thank you for your time on this. I couldn't begin to list the many attempts to explain this without getting a headache but here are a few of my favorites that really don't work. The poster on the christian site is not buying it either, and sees through most of their slick sales tactics. However, the poster is considering conversion to christianity ANYWAY.

1) the writer is using "poetic license"

This fails, because they can not come up with another example of this being used in terms of God/Satan elsewhere in the hebrew bible.

2) The apparent favorite, God permits stuff to happen. That is so convienient.

3) They used to blame God for bad stuff, but afterward realized their error and no longer referred to bad things as coming from God.

4) It's not something that effects our salvation, ignore it.:huh:

Andykiwi · 01-04-2010, 09:33 PM

1 Chronicles 21:1 is the first time Satan is mentioned in the Bible.
They didn't have a concept of Satan until they were in Babylon.
(Job wasn't part of their scriptures until after that.)

CarmStephanieE · 01-04-2010, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andykiwi

1 Chronicles 21:1 is the first time Satan is mentioned in the Bible.
They didn't have a concept of Satan until they were in Babylon.
(Job wasn't part of their scriptures until after that.)

He's alluded to in Genesis as a serpent right from the start.

They may have developed and borrowed ideas and concepts of Satan from the Babylonians, but they still knew of him already.

Maybe I am wrong though. Interesting observations.

Andykiwi · 01-04-2010, 09:50 PM

The Serpent isn't linked to Satan until Revelation - the last book in the Bible.
In the Genesis story it was what became the snake. (It had legs then, apparently ...and it could talk.)

01-04-2010, 10:52 AM	#1
CarmStephanieE Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Midwest Posts: 42	Comparing passages When comparing 2 Samuel 24:1 with 1 Chronicles 21:1, christians give some very strange explainations for the apparent Satan/God problem in this story. I saw this in a thread in a christian forum, and was hoping some here would have more information.

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01-04-2010, 11:11 AM	#2
Deus Ex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,348	I believe Chronicles was written much later than the book of Samuel. Belief in Satan as an arch-rival of God's was more developed by the later time period. IOW, Jewish monotheism was influenced after the Babylonian exile by Persian Zoroastrian belief in two opposing powers in heaven--one good, one evil. The earlier writings would have reflected a more monotheistic belief.

01-04-2010, 04:05 PM	#7
CarmStephanieE Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Midwest Posts: 42	Glad to hear the feedback here. Thank you for your time on this. I couldn't begin to list the many attempts to explain this without getting a headache but here are a few of my favorites that really don't work. The poster on the christian site is not buying it either, and sees through most of their slick sales tactics. However, the poster is considering conversion to christianity ANYWAY. 1) the writer is using "poetic license" This fails, because they can not come up with another example of this being used in terms of God/Satan elsewhere in the hebrew bible. 2) The apparent favorite, God permits stuff to happen. That is so convienient. 3) They used to blame God for bad stuff, but afterward realized their error and no longer referred to bad things as coming from God. 4) It's not something that effects our salvation, ignore it.:huh:

01-04-2010, 09:33 PM	#8
Andykiwi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 2,515	1 Chronicles 21:1 is the first time Satan is mentioned in the Bible. They didn't have a concept of Satan until they were in Babylon. (Job wasn't part of their scriptures until after that.)

01-04-2010, 09:50 PM	#10
Andykiwi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Wellington, NZ Posts: 2,515	The Serpent isn't linked to Satan until Revelation - the last book in the Bible. In the Genesis story it was what became the snake. (It had legs then, apparently ...and it could talk.)

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