show_no_mercy

I've been arguing that for years. The only Jesus that exists is the Jesus that people invent. People believe in warrior Jesus, hippie Jesus, ideal boyfriend Jesus, philosopher Jesus, god Jesus, and every single other archetype of humanity possible.

R. Joseph Hoffmann argued it a lot better than me in this blog post of his though.

spamandham

pfft. gThomas is not in the Bible. Therefor it's not innerant. :Cheeky:

Net2004

which hebrew word in 29:30 is rendered as "more than"? is the verse literally saying in hebrew that rachel was loved, leah hated? one translation i came across renders the hebrew as ...loved rachel rather than leah.

lpetrich

Do you have any direct evidence of that?

Xenophanes pointed out something like that long ago -- that people make gods in their likeness, whatever that likeness may be.

juergen

One argument that validates Jesus' words for a lot of Christian believers that I hear often is his comment about religious conflict in households for his sake.

What I never see considered is, why should this have been a thing that suddenly started within the Christian faith as of Jesus' day, or, as argued by you IBIH, as late as in the 'last days'?

I am sure Jesus was right about families being torn apart due to religious conflicts. But isn't it true that religious conflict wreaks havoc upon Muslim families? Non-Christian families (as per evangelical standards) like Mormons & Jehova's Witness as well? If this only reflects human behavior, what makes family dynamics reacting under the influence of religious tension in his name special? Religious tension is even seen all the way back into the Old Testament.

Might it not be probable that thousands of years before Jesus, just as a couple of thousand of years after him, this has happened when members of the family stray from the family's religious background? If human behavior hasn't changed much in the last few thousand years, Jesus was merely stating that, because of his particular sectarian version of theism, families would be torn apart too. How is this a prophecy?

Something like this doesn't come as a surprise if you know how religious/political thought operates. It is transcultural and transcends the ages.

Do you mean that prior to the 1950's (or what have you) religious tension within Christian families wasn't a problem?

juergen

So it's Jesus that is creating this tension, and not Satan, believers of other religions, or atheists? It sounds as though he's taking responsibility for the tension he would introducing, as though he's creating emnity between people. IMO, it doesn't sound like it was spoken by a peacemaker.

Joan of Bark

Hymn, if the original word really means to love less, why don't the Biblical translators use that term in English bibles, thereby avoiding this confusion? Biblical translators are Christians, after all, and you'd think they'd want to avoid any incorrect interpretations.

But as I said before ...

Petergdi

1) Because it is supposed to be jarring.

2) Because no one ever innocently misunderstands as meaning that one should cultivate hatred for their family and even their own life.

Peter.

Joan of Bark

1) So everything Jesus said could be seen as an exaggeration. In other words, it's all in the interpretation ... as a thousand different Christian denominations can attest.

2) Considering all the negative comments Jesus made about families (including his own), I still think 'hate' is not too strong a word.

From the NIV ...
Mark 1:19 When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. 20 Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him. (also Matthew 4:21)

Mark 3: 31 Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." 33 "Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked. 34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother." (also Luke 8:19 – 21 and Matthew 12:46-50)

Mark 6: 4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor."

Mark 10: 29 "I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. (Also Luke 18:29 and Matthew 19:29)

Mark 13: 12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. (Also Matthew 10:21)

Luke 2:48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you." 49 "Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?"
Luke 9: 59 He said to another man, "Follow me." But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." (also Matthew 8:21) 61 Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family." 62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God."
Luke 11: 27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." 28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
Luke 14:25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law 36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' (Also Luke 12:49) 37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

John 2:1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine." 4 "Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

spin

Still the famous "I don't like what the text says, so I'll convince myself it says something more acceptable" routine.


spin