Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sai · 03-16-2010, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archaeologist

Quote:

Why would it be difficult to date any flood artifact? Surely the mass of human made pottery mixed with dinosaur bones and of course the undeciphered writing and symbols carved on pterodactyl fossils should at least roughly date the flood just as we presently date using carvings on mammoth tusks and bones

We have those, Charles Hapgood recorded documents that recorded the discoveries yet people do not believe. Remember that dinosaurs were pre and post flood so writings on their bones and pottery found with them do not create dates.

links to credible references concerning the carvings on mammoths etc. and dating .

As for your initial question, please demonstrate which artifacts are from the flood , pre and post. i doubt you would know and if you did present some I bet you would have many detractors who would disagree with you.

A very common type of artifact is stone tools, and the flakes of silicate rock created while making them. Those are essentially indestructible.

My boyfriend picked up a prehistoric stone knife we found while deer hunting and he used it skinning the deer. Still as sharp and as good as ever.

Perhaps you could say how all the stone tools were destroyed by your "flood"?

As for your "Charles hapgood', if he had some good data, then he wouldnt have any trouble getting researchers to sit up and take notice.

The ill-fated "nebraska man" fossil was found by an amateur.

There turned out to be no data to indicate that it was a remarkable find.

Charles H is going to have the same problem and get the same dismissal.

Oh, as for dinosaurs, remember that it is only a few christian cultists who think they coexisted with people. In the civilized world, such notions are taken as primitive superstitions.

schriverja · 03-16-2010, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkA

Quote:

Originally Posted by archaeologist

We have those, Charles Hapgood recorded documents that recorded the discoveries yet people do not believe. Remember that dinosaurs were pre and post flood so writings on their bones and pottery found with them do not create dates.

links to credible references concerning the carvings on mammoths etc. and dating .

As for your initial question, please demonstrate which artifacts are from the flood , pre and post. i doubt you would know and if you did present some I bet you would have many detractors who would disagree with you.

My initial question was not answered by you. How exactly were the so-called pre flood pottery destroyed?

I'm curious as to how pottery would be destroyed by a flood as well. I live near a man-made lake in which a valley was flooded with houses and barns still in the valley, and they were not destroyed and scuba divers routinely dive to the bottom to explore these sites. There's also a steamboat that went down in the Missouri River in the 1800's, and the river was later rerouted by the army corps of engineers, and eventually some treasure hunters found the steamboat (buried under about 45 feet of mud and silt), and the contents were perfectly preserved (pretty interesting museum, actually see http://www.1856.com/). Pre-flood pottery should have been preserved as well...

Sai · 03-16-2010, 08:59 AM

We find that this Charles Hapgood had a masters degree, from Harvard, in history.

Why oh why oh WHY is it that with god, the universe, the bible, angels, and all of reality on their side do the theocreologists constantly and exclusively come up with these sorry amateurs to spout their case?

And they all come up with different incompatible versions of how to explain the flood.

Anyone have a reasonable theory as to why someone, like say a young scholar at the U of Beijing, isnt out there finding evidence of the flood and preparing to publish it, become the greatest geologist of all time?

A reasonable theory for why nobody has ever done this?

James Brown · 03-16-2010, 09:04 AM

I love it. When trying to understand what would have been the single most monumental event in the entire history of the human race bar none, a guy named 'archaeologist' says it doesn't matter when it actually happened.

He says it doesn't matter when the flood occurred, even though Genesis 7 says it happened on the 17th day of the 2nd month of Noah's 600th year. But the actual year? Pfft -- God doesn't deal with trifles.

He says what's more important are the moral lessons of the story, which makes the first chapters of Genesis equivalent to Aesop's fables.

This whole thread is full of win! Archaeologist is my new favorite poster. Self-Mutation, arnoldo, and afdave are going to seriously step it up if they want to remain in the rankings.

MadMez · 03-16-2010, 09:04 AM

To me (being a little simple) it's all simply the When and the How of it. The religious say you can't know god's mind, so the Why will never be found out. Fine.
Show me the fingerprints of your god.

steve_bnk · 03-16-2010, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMez

To me (being a little simple) it's all simply the When and the How of it. The religious say you can't know god's mind, so the Why will never be found out. Fine.
Show me the fingerprints of your god.

The response is just look at the universe, it is obvious.

Sai · 03-16-2010, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesABrown

I love it. When trying to understand what would have been the single most monumental event in the entire history of the human race bar none, a guy named 'archaeologist' says it doesn't matter when it actually happened.

He says it doesn't matter when the flood occurred, even though Genesis 7 says it happened on the 17th day of the 2nd month of Noah's 600th year. But the actual year? Pfft -- God doesn't deal with trifles.

He says what's more important are the moral lessons of the story, which makes the first chapters of Genesis equivalent to Aesop's fables.

This whole thread is full of win! Archaeologist is my new favorite poster. Self-Mutation, arnoldo, and afdave are going to seriously step it up if they want to remain in the rankings.

We would have to import some from EF to get any serious contenders.

funinspace · 03-16-2010, 09:14 AM

I thought I would add some reference to how the 2200-2400 BCE times have come about from reading the Bible. It was discussed in detail in this thread:
http://freeratio.org/thearchives/sho...ah#post1683922

Quote:

The Bible is quite clear about the timeline from Adam to Noah to Abraham in Genesis 5:3-28 (1056 years) and 5:32,11:10-26 (897 years). A portion of the text in question:
11:10-17 "This is the account of Shem. Shem was one hundred years old when he became the father of Arphaxad, two years after the flood. And after becoming the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years and had other sons and daughters. When Arphaxad had lived thirty-five years, he became the father of Shelah. And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived four hundred and three years and had other sons and daughters. When Shelah had lived thirty years, he became the father of Eber. And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived four hundred and three years and had other sons and daughters. When Eber had lived thirty-four years, he became the father of Peleg. And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived four hundred and thirty years and had other sons and daughters."
<snip>
The period from Abraham to Jacob entering Egypt to begin the 430 years (Ex 12:40) of Egyptian life can be clearly traced in the same manner. Again, where passages clearly state when X was A old, Y was born. The only difficult one is when Joseph is born, but thru carefully searching thru, the specific dates still
can be determined. This period lasted 290 years.
Abraham has Isaac at 100 Gen 21:5
Isaac has Jacob at 60 Gen 25:26
Jacob has Joseph at 79 (This date become unimportant to calculations)
Jacob enters Egypt at 130 Gen 47:9
Total: 290

So following the Bible literally, one ends up with the first estimation that's required, when did the 40 years of wandering end and the invasion begin. 1170BC (though there are some newer archeological arguments for making this date about a 100 years younger) is what others have culled from the miscellaneous corners searching from King Solomon back to the invasion. I find that an acceptable number. So that puts Jacob entering Egypt in 1610BC (1170 + 40 + 400). And it places the Birth of Abraham at 1900BC. And that puts the flood at 2297BC if you want to insist on the literal life.

As we don't really have an exact date for invasion of Caanan, I don't see how the Deluge could be fixed upon a singular year. Now not too many creationists will even use this date, as it obviously conflicts with much human history, which forces them to spin the words of Genesis pretty hard. You will see creationists picking dates anywhere from this 2200-2400 BCE to 5k years, to 10k years to many ten thousand years.

funinspace · 03-16-2010, 09:44 AM

Heck, I later remembered that I had listed it out in detail another time, so...
http://freeratio.org/thearchives/sho...&postcount=158

Quote:

I thought I would provide the whole lineage, so it's not so hard to read and see reality of that the canon actually says.
Genesis:
5:32 After Noah was five hundred years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11:10 This is the account of Shem.
Shem was one hundred years old when he became the father of Arphaxad, two years after the flood. 11:11 And after becoming the father of Arphaxad, Shem lived five hundred years and had other sons and daughters.
(2 years After Flood (AF) Arphaxad born)
11:12 When Arphaxad had lived thirty-five years, he became the father of Shelah. 11:13 And after he became the father of Shelah, Arphaxad lived four hundred and three years and had other sons and daughters.
(2 + 35 = 37 AF)
11:14 When Shelah had lived thirty years, he became the father of Eber. 11:15 And after he became the father of Eber, Shelah lived four hundred and three years and had other sons and daughters.
(37+30=67AF)
11:16 When Eber had lived thirty-four years, he became the father of Peleg. 11:17 And after he became the father of Peleg, Eber lived four hundred and thirty years and had other sons and daughters.
(67+34=101AF)
11:18 When Peleg had lived thirty years, he became the father of Reu. 11:19 And after he became the father of Reu, Peleg lived two hundred and nine years and had other sons and daughters.
(101+30=131AF)
11:20 When Reu had lived thirty-two years, he became the father of Serug. 11:21 And after he became the father of Serug, Reu lived two hundred and seven years and had other sons and daughters.
(131+32=163AF)
11:22 When Serug had lived thirty years, he became the father of Nahor. 11:23 And after he became the father of Nahor, Serug lived two hundred years and had other sons and daughters.
(163+30=193AF)
11:24 When Nahor had lived twenty-nine years, he became the father of Terah. 11:25 And after he became the father of Terah, Nahor lived one hundred and nineteen years and had other sons and daughters.
(193+29=222AF)
11:26 When Terah had lived seventy years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
(222+70=292AF)
21:5 (Now Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him.)
(292+100=392AF)
25:26 When his brother came out with his hand clutching Esau's heel, they named him Jacob. Isaac was sixty years old when they were born.
(392+60=452AF)
47:9 Jacob said to Pharaoh, "All the years of my travels are one hundred and thirty. All the years of my life have been few and painful; the years of my travels are not as long as those of my ancestors." 47:10 Then Jacob blessed Pharaoh and went out from his presence.
(452+130=582AF)
47:28 Jacob lived in the land of Egypt seventeen years; the years45 of Jacob's life were one hundred and forty-seven in all
Ex 12:40 Now the length of time the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years.
(582+430=1012AF)

This gives us the grand total of time from the infamous invisible flood to the exodus from Egypt being 1012 years. Then they had 40 years of wandering before beginning the invasion of Canaan. So riddle me this: What century/millennium does the believer in a truthful/inerrant canon, think the invasion of the promised land began? Since most all believe the invasion began somewhere between 1200-1400 BC, that puts the flood at 2252-2452 BC. That is the 64,000 dollar question.

Minimalist · 03-16-2010, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archaeologist

It happened after the birth of Noah and before the tower of Babel incident.

The actual date is not important and is really a distraction from the lesson sbeing taught in those chapters.

Why is it so important for you to know the exact date?

Good work, Arch. One fictional event defined between two other fictional events.

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03-16-2010, 08:59 AM	#23
Sai Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: usa Posts: 4,380	We find that this Charles Hapgood had a masters degree, from Harvard, in history. Why oh why oh WHY is it that with god, the universe, the bible, angels, and all of reality on their side do the theocreologists constantly and exclusively come up with these sorry amateurs to spout their case? And they all come up with different incompatible versions of how to explain the flood. Anyone have a reasonable theory as to why someone, like say a young scholar at the U of Beijing, isnt out there finding evidence of the flood and preparing to publish it, become the greatest geologist of all time? A reasonable theory for why nobody has ever done this?

03-16-2010, 09:04 AM	#24
James Brown Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Texas, U.S. Posts: 5,844	I love it. When trying to understand what would have been the single most monumental event in the entire history of the human race bar none, a guy named 'archaeologist' says it doesn't matter when it actually happened. He says it doesn't matter when the flood occurred, even though Genesis 7 says it happened on the 17th day of the 2nd month of Noah's 600th year. But the actual year? Pfft -- God doesn't deal with trifles. He says what's more important are the moral lessons of the story, which makes the first chapters of Genesis equivalent to Aesop's fables. This whole thread is full of win! Archaeologist is my new favorite poster. Self-Mutation, arnoldo, and afdave are going to seriously step it up if they want to remain in the rankings.

03-16-2010, 09:04 AM	#25
MadMez Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Bend, OR, USA Posts: 360	To me (being a little simple) it's all simply the When and the How of it. The religious say you can't know god's mind, so the Why will never be found out. Fine. Show me the fingerprints of your god.

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