Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 05-25-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenaphobe

How would it be possible for there to be throngs of people with the disposable time and income to leave their homes and follow a rabbi around the countryside?

If the majority of the populace were indeed peasants who made their living working the land and sustaining a living, how did they manage all this free time to chase Jesus around the surrounding areas?

Were the crowds an exaggeration by the Gospel writers to make it appear Jesus was a popular teacher who the masses thronged to see?

It just seems fishy.

This sort of farming is intermittent. There are slack times when there is little to do and people can take a few days break and go in search of the latest popular attraction. There are busy times when everyone works flat out.

The largish crowds presumably gathered during slack times in the farming schedule.

Andrew Criddle

show_no_mercy · 05-25-2009, 02:44 PM

Adding weight to Zenaphobe's argument is that there are no contemporaneous writings from historians of that time period describing the popularity of an itinerant preacher named Joshua or Jesus. Surely Philo would have been interested in the living embodiment of his Logos walking around amassing a large following in Galilee.

GakuseiDon · 05-25-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenaphobe

If the majority of the populace were indeed peasants who made their living working the land and sustaining a living, how did they manage all this free time to chase Jesus around the surrounding areas?

Were the crowds an exaggeration by the Gospel writers to make it appear Jesus was a popular teacher who the masses thronged to see?

It just seems fishy.

The numbers don't appear inconsistent with numbers of followers recorded by Josephus for other prophetic figures. For example, Josephus records the following about the Egyptian:
http://www.josephus.org/causesOfWar....phetsAndRebels

But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives

aa5874 · 05-25-2009, 06:08 PM

But what is strikingly different with the Jesus crowd to the crowd following the Egyptian is that Felix immediately brings out the Roman Army against the Egyptian but Jesus is not troubled at all by the Roman Army during the time of Tiberius.

The Egyptian escapes death and many of the thirty thousand are destroyed.

Such did not happen to the Jesus crowd.

Wars of the Jews 2.13.5

Quote:

5......... But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while ;b]the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves.

Jesus and his crowd is left unperturbed.

John the Baptist was executed because Herod thought John the Baptist and his crowd may cause some trouble.

Jesus and his crowd did not give the Romans any trouble.

Herod had problems with John the Baptist and his crowd, but he not did have any recorded trouble with the Jesus crowd.

Antiquities of the Jews 18.5.2

Quote:

.........Now when [many] others came in crowds about him, for they were very greatly moved [or pleased] by hearing his words, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late......

Pilate too had his problems with crowds but the very Pilate never had a recorded problem with the Jesus crowd.

Under Pilate, Roman soldiers would kill to disperse a crowd.

Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.2

Quote:

2. But Pilate undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs.

However, the Jews (8) were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design.

Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do.

So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them.

So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded.

And thus an end was put to this sedition.

Why did not Pilate kill and destroy Jesus and his crowd long before the trial?

One solution. Pilate never saw Jesus and his crowd for the ten years he was governor.

Dave31 · 05-25-2009, 06:58 PM

Jesus famed far and wide:

Quote:

"These "great crowds" and "multitudes," along with Jesus's fame, are repeatedly referred to in the gospels, including at the following: Mt 4:23-25, 5:1, 8:1, 8:18, 9:8, 9:31, 9:33, 9:36, 11:7, 12:15, 13:2, 14:1, 14:13, 14:22, 15:30, 19:2, 21:9, 26:55; Mk 1:28, 10:1; Lk 4:14, 4:37, 5:15, 14:25, etc."

"...there are very few sources for knowledge of the historical Jesus beyond the four canonical Gospels. Paul and Josephus offer little more than tidbits. Claims that later apocryphal Gospels and the Nag Hammadi material supply independent and reliable historical information about Jesus are largely fantasy. In the end, the historian is left with the difficult task of sifting through the Four Gospels for historical tradition." - John P. Meier

- Who Was Jesus? page 85-86

Yet, no valid evidence from a contemporary of Jesus has ever stood up to peer review and scrutiny. It's as if Jesus was just another mythical character.

Solo · 05-26-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GakuseiDon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenaphobe

If the majority of the populace were indeed peasants who made their living working the land and sustaining a living, how did they manage all this free time to chase Jesus around the surrounding areas?

Were the crowds an exaggeration by the Gospel writers to make it appear Jesus was a popular teacher who the masses thronged to see?

It just seems fishy.

The numbers don't appear inconsistent with numbers of followers recorded by Josephus for other prophetic figures. For example, Josephus records the following about the Egyptian:
http://www.josephus.org/causesOfWar....phetsAndRebels

But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives

Hi Don,
the Egyptian was an example of an armed rebellion, typical for the time and place (e.g. Schurer, or Horsley/Hanson 'Bandits, Prophets, Messiahs'), which freely mixed calls for an anti-Roman Jewish uprising with straightforward banditry. The recruitment for, and logistics of, such large scale operations would have been different from what the gospels indicate for Jesus' message and his modus operandi. To gather even five thousand in Galilean countryside for any length of time without the option of raiding villages for food and/or organizing supply lines across a large swath of land, would have not been possible without a miracle.

The other issue of course is the cognitive structure of some of the narration in which the unlikely crowds appear.

In the setup for the first mass feeding in Mark, Jesus speaks to the apostles telling them they should go to a secluded place by themselves and take a rest. The context of the remarks is clear. Jesus speaks to his disciples and to them alone. But as soon as the apostles are on their way, they are recognized and 'many' follow them to the place Jesus sent them. How probable is it that the crowd following a small group of men would swell to five thousand ? How many villages or towns did they pass through ? Did everyone just drop everything and follow them ? Well, you say, it's still possible. But there is a problem, you see: these people know where Jesus sent his disciples because they arrive to the appointed place ahead of the disciples. Mystery !

The gathering then is symbolic and constructed as such.

Regards,
Jiri

andrewcriddle · 05-26-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Why did not Pilate kill and destroy Jesus and his crowd long before the trial?

One solution. Pilate never saw Jesus and his crowd for the ten years he was governor.

The large crowds coming to see Jesus seem (mostly) to be in the Galilee, which is Herod's jurisdiction not Pilate's

Andrew Criddle

aa5874 · 05-26-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Why did not Pilate kill and destroy Jesus and his crowd long before the trial?

One solution. Pilate never saw Jesus and his crowd for the ten years he was governor.

The large crowds coming to see Jesus seem (mostly) to be in the Galilee, which is Herod's jurisdiction not Pilate's

Andrew Criddle

Well, why did not Herod kill Jesus like he did John the Baptist?

Jesus had very large crowds according to the NT,perhaps on a daily basis and everywhere he went.

What is surprising is that after Herod kills John the Baptist, in the NT, he seems not to know much about Jesus.

But Jesus should have been even more popular than John the Baptist.

Herod asked, "Who is Jesus"?

Luke 9.7

Quote:

7Now Herod the tetrarch heard of all that was done by him: and he was perplexed, because that it was said of some, that John was risen from the dead; 8and of some, that Eli'jah had appeared; and of others, that one of the old prophets was risen again. 9And Herod said, John have I beheaded; but who is this, of whom I hear such things?

And he desired to see him.

But look at what happens next in the story of gLuke, Jesus has a crowd with 5000 men and these 5000 men instead of dispersing as the night comes along, they are being fed by Jesus.

Luke 9.10-17

Quote:

10And the apostles, when they were returned, told him all that they had done. And he took them, and went aside privately into a desert place belonging to the city called Bethsai'da. 11And the people, when they knew it, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing. 12And when the day began to wear away, then came the twelve, and said unto him, Send the multitude away, that they may go into the towns and country round about, and lodge, and get victuals: for we are here in a desert place. 13But he said unto them, Give ye them to eat. And they said, We have no more but five loaves and two fishes; except we should go and buy meat for all this people.

14For they were about five thousand men.

Why did not Herod kill Jesus, he had 5000 men in his crowd?

And some of these followers were armed. The Jesus crowd was dangerous.

Luke 22.49-50

Quote:

49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? 50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.

Amazingly up to the trial of Jesus, Herod had not seen Jesus yet, but he was
very, very happy to see Jesus. Herod wanted to see some miracles.

Luke 23:8 -

Quote:

And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.

John was baptising people and Herod killed him, now that Jesus was walking around with armed men with swords, Herod does nothing.

Herod never saw the Jesus crowd or Jesus or else he would have been destroyed by Herod just like John the Baptist.

vid · 05-26-2009, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Well, why did not Herod kill Jesus like he did John the Baptist?

I was already interested in this speculation before: Wasn't Herod simply acting through temple priest as proxys?

He surely had best reason to kill Jesus. But killing Jesus (as even canonical gospel says) was something prone to cause disturbances. Doesn't it seem most logical for Herod to wait until Jesus gets to Roman province, and then accuse him (through clergy) in their jurisdiction? The usurper ends up dead, and Herods hands are clean. Accusations that Herod faced after killing John the Baptist from his remaining followers won't repeat this way.

I even think one of apocryphal gospels indeed links Herod with killing of Jesus, but I am not 100% sure about it now.

Of course this is just a speculation (as most of HJ, anyway), but I think a good one.

However I am still quite confused about details on relationship between Herod <-> his Galilean clergy (was there any?) <-> Jerusalem Temple clergy <-> Roman pilate

andrewcriddle · 05-27-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid

I even think one of apocryphal gospels indeed links Herod with killing of Jesus, but I am not 100% sure about it now.

See gospel of peter

Quote:

But of the Jews none washed his hands, neither Herod nor one of his judges. And since they did not desire to wash, Pilate stood up. And then Herod the king orders the Lord to be taken away, having said to them, 'What I ordered you to do, do.'

NB The Gospel of Peter is not a reliable historical source.

Andrew Criddle

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05-25-2009, 02:44 PM	#12
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	Adding weight to Zenaphobe's argument is that there are no contemporaneous writings from historians of that time period describing the popularity of an itinerant preacher named Joshua or Jesus. Surely Philo would have been interested in the living embodiment of his Logos walking around amassing a large following in Galilee.

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