Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 11-08-2004, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

God does not love everyone = common erroneous belief about God. The capacity to love everyone is there but He does not love everyone. The Bible reveals a God who has enemies and these enemies are the object of His wrath.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Are you saying that God doesn't actually love the world?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

God turned freedom/free will loose because love cannot be established if a person does not have the freedom to do otherwise.

Why could not God make us so that we love him?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Acceptance of Jesus is not the criteria for entrance to heaven. Faithfulness to Jesus is, and there are exceptions - but not many.

OK, so you can switch the phrases "accept Jesus" and "be faithful to Jesus" and it wouldn't change the context. But it would send millions to hell.

[QUOTE=WILLOWTREE]Adam/Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. The Garden was not heaven - obviously.[quote]
No, but I didn't say heaven, I said paradise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

They like us are on trial until the day we die.

Evidence?

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Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Rejecting th existence of the trial is the chief indication that you are failing.

Biblical evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Because God allowed the serpent/Satan to do so.

Biblical evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Because we are on trial in a war between God and Satan.

Biblical evidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Satan only wants to make us fail and not replace the void left in heaven by him and his fallen angels.

But if there is no sin in heaven, then how can Satan have fallen in the first place?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

When he succeeds he also gets revenge on God for not forgiving him, unlike the forgiveness available to us.

This raises an interesting point. Why did God not forgive Satan? You probably can't answer it, because it is not supported biblically, but I asked it anyways, just to see what you may think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

Satan has access to heaven to accuse mankind before God but he is not a resident any longer.

How, why, and where? And for what purpose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by WILLOWTREE

All your questions reflect ignorance about basic Bible claims.

Please don't get offended for I am ignorant about many things.

WT

:huh:

Chris Weimer · 11-08-2004, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

It does make sense. Love can't exist without choice. And yes there is a Heaven.

That's not true. Love can be forced. I mean, if truly he created all things...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Presumeably no, but that doesn't mean the possibility for it to exist isn't there.

If Heaven can become like Earth (with sin and everything), then what is the point of going to heaven?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Here is where your argument starts to break down. Heaven and Earth are connected as part of creation. On Earth, both good and evil exist. We make choices on Earth and choose our fate based on those choices. Do we stand for good, and God, or do we stand for evil and oppose Him. After the Earth passes a way, we transition to our final destinations, based on what we chose on Earth. Its not that Earth and Heaven/Hell are completely distinct. Its not a question of if there is evil on Earth, isn't there in Heaven? Its that, since there is evil and good on Earth, our transition is to either God and goodness, or Hell and evil.

But if we can make choices on Earth, can we not also make them on Heaven? Actually, it is you that are separating the two. I say they are connected by the fact that people still have choice; you say that it is distinct, that it is a journey from one to the other. So which is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Garden of Eden is not that same as Heaven. Adam also had never experienced sin or temptation.

I said Adam sinned in paradise. Never said Heaven. But you're right, this is a faulty assumption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

See above, paradise in the Garden of Eden is different than Heaven.

How? And sources?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

No one said those in Heaven can't sin. The distinction is, during the fall of the angels, the angels hadn't experienced sin and rebellion yet, like Adam. Angels are not the same as humans. They aren't given the chance to repent and be saved. Satan went against God, much like Adam and Eve, and was cast out of Heaven. One possibility is the Heaven of the fall isn't the same as the one to come. In other words, Satan and the angels were allowed to sin in Heaven, afterwhich they were cast out and no sin was again allowed in Heaven. Fast forward to the future, humans know the consequence of sin, there is no reason to rebell again. The only reason we end up in the new Heaven is because we actively chose to be in a place without sin. Also keep in mind, the future Heaven of Christians isn't the Heaven you generally think of.

If humans will always be able to sin, how come Heaven is so sought after, if it too will be subject to evils? What's the point of living for Christ if nothing changes?

Also, what am I thinking of? That was how I was taught. What did the Christians do that was wrong?

Chris Weimer · 11-08-2004, 08:51 PM

By the way, I'm not being spiteful, but when you start making up things that isn't there, at least explain where you pulled it out from...

CJD · 11-09-2004, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Q1. If evil exists, how can that come from an omnibenevolent God?

Some might ask you to consider the notion that while God is indeed all-good (according to his nature), he is nonetheless not good equally and indiscriminately to all (gasp! you mean God's not an egalitarian?!!

).

So the retort to your first question is: "Define omnibenevolent."

show_no_mercy · 11-09-2004, 08:06 AM

So basically, once we get to heaven, we lose free will... if we didn't lose free will, then there would be evil in heaven as well and it would cease to be heaven. Unless you can get kicked out of heaven once you get there... but that's neither mentioned in the Bible or is it "eternal life"

Net2004 · 11-09-2004, 01:16 PM

Quote:

TA - Because God loves everyone.

"I began to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive
them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels."
(Ho 9:15)

what does "i began to hate them" mean?

Chili · 11-09-2004, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJD

Some might ask you to consider the notion that while God is indeed all-good (according to his nature), he is nonetheless not good equally and indiscriminately to all (gasp! you mean God's not an egalitarian?!!

).

So the retort to your first question is: "Define omnibenevolent."

Omnibenevolent has no opposite of its own. Opposites exist only in our extrapolations of Gods omnies where they are all second cause emotions.

Chili · 11-09-2004, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Net2004

"I began to hate them. Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive
them out of my house. I will love them no more; all their princes are rebels."
(Ho 9:15)

what does "i began to hate them" mean?

Called to be children of God but not chosen to mature and become one with God (as in "Israel", for example). Usually because of un-be-lief = un-willing.

Aaron Thrash · 11-09-2004, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Who said Adam and Eve are punished eternally?

Oh, I don't know, the fact that they were banished from the Garden of eden ETERNALLY, or forced to bear children in great pain ETERNALLY. You christians with your taking things out of context and jumping on one single statement that you yourself have made but fail miserably at supporting; it's impossible to discuss anything with you. Which is why I try to abstain from religious discussions of this nature.

Even when faced with your very own scriptures you still attempt to move the goal posts. God punished Adam when there was no system for comparison, therefore god is stupid.

-A

RobertLW · 11-09-2004, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Thrash

Would not you assume that as a loving god he would have explained to the first people about the dangers of his very creation? What a stupid and selfish god you worship.

Even when faced with your very own scriptures you still attempt to move the goal posts. God punished Adam when there was no system for comparison, therefore god is stupid.

Aaron, I am pressed for time but I just wanted to clarify something. I don't know if I will be able to post again anytime soon so don't really expect an answer from me.

God did warn Adam about sin. Gen 2:16-17, "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die". When Adam ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he disobeyed God and thus sinned. Also, Adam did not have to experience sin first in order to obey God. Example: I do not want my son to burn himself on the stove because I love him and I do not want him to get burned. Do I need to place his hand on the stove while it is on so that he has experienced it and thus has a "system for comparison"? Absolutely not and it would be wrong for me to do so. Instead I command him, "Son, do not touch the stove because if you do you will get burned." My son has a choice, either obey his father and not get burned or disobey and get burned.

Just some clarification.

Thanks,

Robert

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11-08-2004, 08:51 PM	#23
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	By the way, I'm not being spiteful, but when you start making up things that isn't there, at least explain where you pulled it out from...

11-09-2004, 08:06 AM	#25
show_no_mercy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Dancing Posts: 9,940	So basically, once we get to heaven, we lose free will... if we didn't lose free will, then there would be evil in heaven as well and it would cease to be heaven. Unless you can get kicked out of heaven once you get there... but that's neither mentioned in the Bible or is it "eternal life"

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