Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 11-07-2004, 11:26 PM

I've got it, although it probably has been mentioned before. Well, here goes my argument.

Q1. If evil exists, how can that come from an omnibenevolent God?

Typical Apology - God allows freedom of choice, therefore people can choose evil over God.

Q2. Why would God want to give people this freedom?

TA - Because God loves everyone.

Q3. Well, that makes no sense, but OK, let's work with it. Next question: Is there a Heaven?

TA - Yes, Heaven is where you go to if you accept Jesus when you die.

Q4. Is there any evil in Heaven?

TA - No, there is no evil in Heaven.

Q5. Are there people in Heaven?

TA - Well, yes, Christians, that is.

Q5. So how come God doesn't care that Christians lose their freedom in Heaven, but doesn't mind that they suffer while on Earth?

TA - Well, they don't lose their freedom in Heaven, they just wouldn't want to sin because it's paradise.

Q6. But didn't Adam sin in paradise?

TA - Yes, but that was because the Serpent tempted him.

Q7. Why was the Serpent tempting him, if it is paradise and all?

TA - The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin.

Q8. But I thought those in Heaven couldn't sin? How did Satan sin if he was in Heaven?

TA - ?

Anyone wanna try and finish the apology?

Toto · 11-07-2004, 11:46 PM

This is Biblical Criticism and History here. Can you connect this? The Bible does not have Satan falling from heaven. The identification of the serpent in the Garden of Eden with Satan is a much later Christian idea.

Chris Weimer · 11-07-2004, 11:49 PM

Well, if we were to only look at Enoch, which used to be in the Bible, and still is...

Rifleman · 11-07-2004, 11:51 PM

I think it's a solid argument, and there are others like it that address other central inconsistencies in Christian doctrine. I wouldn't quite say it proves that Christianity is wrong, but it certainly does show how implausible it is.

Here is a somewhat similar argument I've made in the past that I still think holds water:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...83#post1786883

The idea is that although apologists often claim that evil exists "because God wanted us to have free will," it would have been entirely possible to create human beings that would always avoid sin through their own free choice.

Rifleman · 11-07-2004, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

This is Biblical Criticism and History here. Can you connect this? The Bible does not have Satan falling from heaven. The identification of the serpent in the Garden of Eden with Satan is a much later Christian idea.

Actually, I think there is a passage in the New Testament where Jesus says, "I have watched Satan (or Lucifer?) fall from heaven like lightning," or something along those lines. I'll try to find an exact quote.

Also, there is a section in Isaiah (14:12-15) about the fall of Lucifer:

Quote:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

So it's proper to ask apologists why God would create Lucifer with flaws that would lead Lucifer to choose rebellion over obedience.

Chris Weimer · 11-07-2004, 11:55 PM

Ah yes, I do remember that one. Whatever heppened to IrishMan? Couldn't handle, or something? Anyway, his response "People ignore their natural disgust of sin" doesn't even come close to answering your question, since he obviously left out children... Zie Kinder! Zie Kinder!

Chris Weimer · 11-07-2004, 11:57 PM

Well, the Lucifer one is easily apologized for by the fact that Isaiah is talking about the Assyrian king... (I'm pretty sure it was Assyrian, folks, not Babylonian) but yeah, this is one that has not been explained.

Rifleman · 11-08-2004, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

Well, the Lucifer one is easily apologized for by the fact that Isaiah is talking about the Assyrian king... (I'm pretty sure it was Assyrian, folks, not Babylonian) but yeah, this is one that has not been explained.

Really? I was always pretty certain that the passage about Lucifer in Isaiah was the basis of Christian beliefs about the origin of Satan.

Rifleman · 11-08-2004, 12:04 AM

I just found that other reference to Satan's fall in the Bible, BTW:

Quote:

Luke 10:17-18: And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Toto · 11-08-2004, 12:14 AM

New Advent

Quote:

And the older commentators generally consider that this interpretation is confirmed by the words of Our Lord to his disciples: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven" (Luke 10:18). For these words were regarded as a rebuke to the disciples, who were thus warned of the danger of pride by being reminded of the fall of Lucifer. But modern commentators take this text in a different sense, and refer it not to the original fall of Satan, but his overthrow by the faith of the disciples, who cast out devils in the name of their Master. And this new interpretation, as Schanz observes, is more in keeping with the context.

But then there is Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

11-07-2004, 11:26 PM	#1
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	AHA! Christianity disproved! I've got it, although it probably has been mentioned before. Well, here goes my argument. Q1. If evil exists, how can that come from an omnibenevolent God? Typical Apology - God allows freedom of choice, therefore people can choose evil over God. Q2. Why would God want to give people this freedom? TA - Because God loves everyone. Q3. Well, that makes no sense, but OK, let's work with it. Next question: Is there a Heaven? TA - Yes, Heaven is where you go to if you accept Jesus when you die. Q4. Is there any evil in Heaven? TA - No, there is no evil in Heaven. Q5. Are there people in Heaven? TA - Well, yes, Christians, that is. Q5. So how come God doesn't care that Christians lose their freedom in Heaven, but doesn't mind that they suffer while on Earth? TA - Well, they don't lose their freedom in Heaven, they just wouldn't want to sin because it's paradise. Q6. But didn't Adam sin in paradise? TA - Yes, but that was because the Serpent tempted him. Q7. Why was the Serpent tempting him, if it is paradise and all? TA - The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin. Q8. But I thought those in Heaven couldn't sin? How did Satan sin if he was in Heaven? TA - ? Anyone wanna try and finish the apology?

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11-07-2004, 11:46 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is Biblical Criticism and History here. Can you connect this? The Bible does not have Satan falling from heaven. The identification of the serpent in the Garden of Eden with Satan is a much later Christian idea.

11-07-2004, 11:49 PM	#3
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Well, if we were to only look at Enoch, which used to be in the Bible, and still is...

11-07-2004, 11:51 PM	#4
Rifleman Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: USA Posts: 108	I think it's a solid argument, and there are others like it that address other central inconsistencies in Christian doctrine. I wouldn't quite say it proves that Christianity is wrong, but it certainly does show how implausible it is. Here is a somewhat similar argument I've made in the past that I still think holds water: http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...83#post1786883 The idea is that although apologists often claim that evil exists "because God wanted us to have free will," it would have been entirely possible to create human beings that would always avoid sin through their own free choice.

11-07-2004, 11:55 PM	#6
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Ah yes, I do remember that one. Whatever heppened to IrishMan? Couldn't handle, or something? Anyway, his response "People ignore their natural disgust of sin" doesn't even come close to answering your question, since he obviously left out children... Zie Kinder! Zie Kinder!

11-07-2004, 11:57 PM	#7
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Well, the Lucifer one is easily apologized for by the fact that Isaiah is talking about the Assyrian king... (I'm pretty sure it was Assyrian, folks, not Babylonian) but yeah, this is one that has not been explained.

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