Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 11-01-2007, 09:47 AM

I think it is agreed that Moses and the Exodus is fiction - Bible Unearthed.

But why create the story of Yahweh saving his people?

Might it all actually be post exilic?

Might Moses be modelled on Cyrus?

Yes there are probably loads of references to Moses before Cyrus, but is it possible, as with Constantine, that a major editing and revising exercise occurred starting by the rivers of Babylon?

And what are the connections between Abraham and Zarathustra? Might Abraham be a legendary type of Zarathustra?

neilgodfrey · 11-02-2007, 05:39 PM

Dutch Head of Department of Semitic Studies in the Theological University of Kampen, Dr Jan-Wim Wesselius, argues that the Moses campaign was modelled on the Xerxes campaign in Herodotus. See links here for details.

Neil

Clivedurdle · 11-03-2007, 03:03 PM

Having not just seen 300 but having read Persian Fire that discusses Xerxes in great detail, I must note I like it!

Quote:

Dr Jan-Wim Wesselius, Senior Lecturer and Head of the Department of Semitic Studies in the Theological University of Kampen, Netherlands, in 2002, published The Origin of the History of Israel : Herodotus's Histories as Blueprint for the First Books of the Bible (or via: amazon.co.uk). "This book demonstrates that the Primary History, the historical work contained in the first nine books of the Hebrew Bible (Genesis--2 Kings), was written as one unitary work in deliberate emulation of the Greek-language Histories of Herodotus of Halicarnassus (completed c. 440 bce); the diversity of its books and sections is largely a literary device. The work was most likely written in the period 440-420 bce, in the period of reform usually associated with the name of Nehemiah. Though this thesis does not directly affect questions of historicity, understanding the literary nature of the Primary History promises to open new vistas for research into the history of Israel, the Hebrew Bible in general and the history of the Hebrew language." -- dust jacket.

Have there been any reactions to it?

Toto · 11-03-2007, 04:21 PM

Wesselius' home page indicates that the idea has met some resistance.

Quote:

All this is far less sensational than it would seem: it has often been assumed that the final redaction of these books took place around 400 BCE, when access to the work of Herodotus must not have been too difficult for inhabitants of the Western part of the Persian empire (see for an interesting literary elaboration of this idea Gore Vidal’s novel Creation), and the two works have indeed been compared by many ancient and modern scholars. No one, however, seems to have tested the hypothesis of a direct literary connection between the two works, which has such far-reaching consequences that resistance to the idea is understandable, though in one case it is found in a form which unfortunately crosses the boundaries of scholarly ethics, . . . . It may be added that my thesis was formulated to explain the strange congruence of the two works, and that its first purpose is definitely not to clarify origin and history of the Primary History: this is in a way an unexpected, but very welcome, by-product of these considerations. A nice review by Patrick Madigan, apparently very well aware of the issues at stake, has appeared in The Heythrop Journal 46 (2005) 526-527. I cannot resist the temptation to quote his first sentence, both blushing and confirming the likeliness of the statement: 'Wesselius has ignited a stick of dynamite which will generate a slow-motion explosion in Old Testament studies over the coming decades'. Madigan rightly indicated the diminished importance of the Documentary Hypothesis in the light of my book, implicitly indicating that I did not deal with its issues completely. This lacuna I tried to fill with a number of publications mentioned on this page, which will in my opinion lay the Documentary Hypothesis to rest forever.

There is a review here from the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

Quote:

This reviewer has gone through the many other parallels cited by Wesselius. They are always interesting and novel and challenging, and Wesselius certainly deserves great credit for bringing them to our attention, even if they are often less than convincing.

Louis H. Feldman

Neil Godfrey blogs about it here and elsewhere.

neilgodfrey · 11-03-2007, 04:40 PM

I sometimes get the impression that Wesselius goes too far even for some of the better known Copenhagen School minimalists.

The essential thrust of Wesselius's argument is not so much the point for point correspondences between Herodotus and the Primary History, but a deeper structural comparison. He compares the way Virgil studied and responded to the deeper structure underlying Homer's work, and did not simply make point for point allusions. Wesselius sees in the Primary History a similar structural dialogue with Herodotus' Histories.

Part of the structural edifice in common are the genealogies found in both Herodotus and Primary History. As Virgil creates Aeneas to emulate or prove superior to Odysseus, the author of the PH models his Moses and Exodus on a similar emulation of Xerxes, he argues.

Also, as Histories was structured to relate to events in the fifth century Greece, so PH was apparently designed to relate to events at time of Nehemiah and Ezra.

Histories has 3 divisions: Origins (book 1), History (books 2 to 6) and the Great Campaign (books 7 to 9); Just as Virgil drew on the structure of Homer's work but rearranged it, PH has Origins (Genesis -- book 1); the Great Campaign (Exodus-Joshua, books 2 to 6); and History (Judg-Sam-Kings, books 7 to 9).

I cannot comment on the validity of the argument. But I do enjoy reading and thinking about it. It is not surprising it meets with resistance. I would want to read much more around the whole discussion before commenting about its validity. (Though I understand there is a question -- also addressed by Wesselius -- over whether the original 9 book division was by the author or a later librarian.)

Neil Godfrey

jules? · 11-03-2007, 04:47 PM

You may have point, one of the most impressive aspects of Judaism was their ability to absorb everyones religion/culture, whether it be Egyptian temples and priests, Canaanite legends, Babylonian legends, Egyptian etc, Zoroaster, Plato, etc and then pretend it was all their idea in the first place. And if you think about it Judea was a tiny inhospitable country with no natural resources, a theocracy powered by scribes who could not have the historical presence and population to generate a quarter of the number of myths.

clever strategy

Clivedurdle · 11-04-2007, 03:29 AM

And they may have got so good at this bringing together stuff they created a production line, the second was the Jesus model, followed by the Mohammed model. Much later on the corporation split up into localised factories and produced protestantism and mormonism.

neilgodfrey · 11-04-2007, 02:08 PM

I forgot I had also begun a series of posts on Wesselius' predecessors, Mandell and Freedman, re comparing the Primary History of Israel with Herodotus.

It was a thread I began nearly a year ago and never got around to continuing -- but still, some background posts looking at the broader issues for comparing the 2 histories are online here.

Or if you hate scrolling and searching, more specifically:

Moses and Xerxes

Herodotus and Primary History -- general

Herodotus and Primary History contd (Wesselius)

Herodotus and Primary History -- notes from Mandell's and Freedman's Preface

Notes from Mandell and Freedman continued

Have begun too many threads -- losing some, must get more orgynized to finish a few!

Neil Godfrey

11-01-2007, 09:47 AM	#1
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Cyrus and Judaism I think it is agreed that Moses and the Exodus is fiction - Bible Unearthed. But why create the story of Yahweh saving his people? Might it all actually be post exilic? Might Moses be modelled on Cyrus? Yes there are probably loads of references to Moses before Cyrus, but is it possible, as with Constantine, that a major editing and revising exercise occurred starting by the rivers of Babylon? And what are the connections between Abraham and Zarathustra? Might Abraham be a legendary type of Zarathustra?

11-02-2007, 05:39 PM	#2
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	Why stop at Cyrus? Dutch Head of Department of Semitic Studies in the Theological University of Kampen, Dr Jan-Wim Wesselius, argues that the Moses campaign was modelled on the Xerxes campaign in Herodotus. See links here for details. Neil

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11-03-2007, 04:40 PM	#5
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	I sometimes get the impression that Wesselius goes too far even for some of the better known Copenhagen School minimalists. The essential thrust of Wesselius's argument is not so much the point for point correspondences between Herodotus and the Primary History, but a deeper structural comparison. He compares the way Virgil studied and responded to the deeper structure underlying Homer's work, and did not simply make point for point allusions. Wesselius sees in the Primary History a similar structural dialogue with Herodotus' Histories. Part of the structural edifice in common are the genealogies found in both Herodotus and Primary History. As Virgil creates Aeneas to emulate or prove superior to Odysseus, the author of the PH models his Moses and Exodus on a similar emulation of Xerxes, he argues. Also, as Histories was structured to relate to events in the fifth century Greece, so PH was apparently designed to relate to events at time of Nehemiah and Ezra. Histories has 3 divisions: Origins (book 1), History (books 2 to 6) and the Great Campaign (books 7 to 9); Just as Virgil drew on the structure of Homer's work but rearranged it, PH has Origins (Genesis -- book 1); the Great Campaign (Exodus-Joshua, books 2 to 6); and History (Judg-Sam-Kings, books 7 to 9). I cannot comment on the validity of the argument. But I do enjoy reading and thinking about it. It is not surprising it meets with resistance. I would want to read much more around the whole discussion before commenting about its validity. (Though I understand there is a question -- also addressed by Wesselius -- over whether the original 9 book division was by the author or a later librarian.) Neil Godfrey

11-03-2007, 04:47 PM	#6
jules? Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: mind the time rift, cardiff, wales Posts: 645	You may have point, one of the most impressive aspects of Judaism was their ability to absorb everyones religion/culture, whether it be Egyptian temples and priests, Canaanite legends, Babylonian legends, Egyptian etc, Zoroaster, Plato, etc and then pretend it was all their idea in the first place. And if you think about it Judea was a tiny inhospitable country with no natural resources, a theocracy powered by scribes who could not have the historical presence and population to generate a quarter of the number of myths. clever strategy

11-04-2007, 03:29 AM	#7
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	And they may have got so good at this bringing together stuff they created a production line, the second was the Jesus model, followed by the Mohammed model. Much later on the corporation split up into localised factories and produced protestantism and mormonism.

11-04-2007, 02:08 PM	#8
neilgodfrey Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Darwin, Australia Posts: 874	I forgot I had also begun a series of posts on Wesselius' predecessors, Mandell and Freedman, re comparing the Primary History of Israel with Herodotus. It was a thread I began nearly a year ago and never got around to continuing -- but still, some background posts looking at the broader issues for comparing the 2 histories are online here. Or if you hate scrolling and searching, more specifically: Moses and Xerxes Herodotus and Primary History -- general Herodotus and Primary History contd (Wesselius) Herodotus and Primary History -- notes from Mandell's and Freedman's Preface Notes from Mandell and Freedman continued Have begun too many threads -- losing some, must get more orgynized to finish a few! Neil Godfrey

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