Cesc

In Num 25, being killed and hanging [in the sun's heat] before the Lord (Young's Literal Translation) or killed and exposed [to the sun] before the Lord (NIV) is a sacrifice to appease God:
Also in 2 Sam 21:1-14, seven sons of King Saul are killed and hanged before the Lord (Young's) or killed and exposed before the Lord (NIV) on a hill:
Here they are also "hanged/exposed before the Lord" on a hill in order to appease God to end His famine, apparantly as a sacrificial offering in the first days of the harvest.


Isn't this the same as "being killed and hanged on a tree"? Your dead body being exposed to the elements and the scavengers? In Joshua 8 and 10 the "exposure" on the tree is also ended at sunset:
Deuteronomy clearly states the dead body is to be hung on a tree which is a curse:
The Talmud tells (if Im not mistaken, correct me if Im wrong) of Jesus ben Pandira being stoned and subsequently hanged on a tree.
The DSS describe the victimized Son of Righteousness as "the one hanged alive upon a tree".
The author of Galatians 3 also identifies Jesus' crucifiction with this curse of hanging on a tree in the substitute sacrifice understanding:
Can anyone enlighten me abit about the relationship/difference between the "Roman crucifiction" and this crucifiction, the "curse of God", being hung upon a tree with your body exposed to the elements as a sacrifice to the Lord? Or is there a difference at all?

perfectidius

So to understand the argument of Galations, in the "Old Testament" God said cursed is a man who hangs from a tree, and by this he meant the he himself, a God, would be hung from a tree in the future to "become a curse for us"? So since we already were cursed, by the logic of the argument, hanging from a tree in old testament times, a man is not more or less cursed than mankind already apparently was?

I bet there is so ancient context that would enlighten that weird Old Testament quote.

Cesc

LoL good point. I guess there's several degrees of curses!
What OT quote do you mean is weird? I think its weird that "leaving the body overnight" is to "desecrate the land" (the Deut. law)

Researching abit further, I now see how there's a big difference in hanging a dead body on a tree (Jewish. An offering?) and hanging someone on a tree alive (non-Jewish, execution).
Wiki points out that only 4 methods of execution are allowed under Jewish law. But misses the point that being "hung on a tree" is the dead body, only to be done after the execution.
Apparantly wiki doesnt realise or take into account the above scriptural references of the dead body being "exposed/hanged before the Lord" or "hung on a tree". Deut 21:22-23, in talking about the curse of hanging on a tree, does not refer to an execution since the body is already dead when hung on the tree, just as with all the above examples from Num, 2 Sam and Josh.
Nor does it refer to a "lynching" or "traditional hanging" since we're not talking about "hanging from a tree" but "hanging on a tree". That is, a body which is already dead.

But did the author of Galatians realise that? One would think so, even though Jesus was hanged alive "on a tree", and not his dead body, which is the situation Deut. talks about, the biblical way. I guess whether you're dead or alive its still a curse to hang on a tree!

perfectidius

I find it weird that the Bible says "Cursed is a man that hangs from a tree." But I think it only sounds weird to me because I am not an ancient Jew. I mean, I assume it was understandable to them at the time.

1) Did they believe in the afterlife, or in what sense is the man "cursed" after he is dead. Do they mean his family, his memory and good name?

2) What exactly is a curse? As you've said about "degrees of curses" perhaps mankind is cursed on one level, and a man can be especially cursed. If so what does this mean.

3)What is especially curse worthy about having your body put on a tree? Does tha mean that God will put a curse on anybody hung from a tree? If so, why that?

Daniel

Cesc

There are so many weird things in the OT...
God is a rock. And the swearing of important oaths comes to mind: "Place your hand under my thigh and swear!" says Abraham, Gen 24:9. Testify by the holy testicles?

Yeah, how can you be cursed after you're dead? And what is "cursed" here anyway?
Perhaps it was only at the time of the writing of Deuteronomy that it was to be regarded as a "curse"? If Deut. was written under King Josiah we'd have to understand the context as opposed to the earlier time of the writing of Num, 2 Sam and Josh.
Which I dont :- )
But I speculate that the priests who wrote Deuteronomy and supposedly passed it off as an ancient text cramfilled it with all kinds of laws and doctrines which would fit into their system.

You mean "hangs on a tree"

Jobber

The main difference seems to be that Roman crucifixion was performed before the death of the criminal and O.T. examples have dead criminals placed upon trees after death.

Cesc

Indeed, which then begs the question: Why hang a dead body on a tree?

To me it seems to be an offering to Jahve. In 2 Sam 21:1-14 its not criminals as such who are hung before the Lord. There's a famine and God tells David it is because Saul had slain some Gibeonites. So David ask the Gibeonites how to "make amends", and they say they want seven offsprings of Saul to "be killed and exposed before the Lord" (21:6) which they do. Then they do some kind of ritual thingies with the bodies and the bones and then everythings good with the Lord and everyone's is happy again ('cept the seven sons of Saul I suspect).

Does anyone know anything about this kind of Jewish ritual offering? Apparantly the point is to expose the dead body for one day and then bury them after sunset or something.

Cesc

Acts of the Apostles says Jesus was killed by being hung on a tree:
Trees, among other things, were often used for crucifixion executions according to the ancient sources, where the condemned was sometimes first made to carry the crossbar himself on his back (says wiki).
But doesnt some of the Gospels say that Jesus carried a full cross, as commonly depicted? (Which, according to wiki, was also a practice)

Anyway, the OT's hanging upon a tree before the Lord was a religious practice to the ancient Jews. As far as I can see from the passages above, it first and foremost had a very specific theological significance. "Hanging before the Lord".

So I ask, did that play a role in the Christian/Pauline theological interpretation of Jesus' execution on a tree? Anything other than the Deuteronomical curse that Jesus "became a curse for us" (Gal 3:13) ? Anyone know of any authors dealing with this particular subject?