Ben C Smith

To any whose skills in French exceed my own... which means almost anybody.

I have recently gotten my hands on the marvelous little book by Shlomo Pines on Agapius and the Testimonium Flavianum. On page 52 therein he gives a French rendition of a Syriac passage from Michael the Syrian, patriarch of Antioch in century XII, which he attributes to J. B. Chabot. I cannot find any rendering in English. The French runs as follows:

Phlégon, philosophe profane, écrit ainsi: Le soleil s'est obscurci, et la terre a tremblé; les morts ont ressuscité, sont entrés ê Jérusalem et ont maudit les Juifs. Dans l'ouvrage qu'il écrivit sur les temps des olympiades, il dit dans le XIIIe livre: La quatrième année de la IIIe olympiade, il y eut une obscurité ê la sixième heure du jour, un vendredi, et les étoiles apparurent. Nicée et la région de Bithynie tout entière furent ébranlées, et beaucoup d'autres endroits furent renversés.

What I am looking for is help with my translation... particularly since I have never had French. Here is what I have so far:

Phlegon, a secular philosopher, has written thus: The sun obscured itself, and the earth trembled; the dead resurrected and entered into Jerusalem and cursed the Jews. In the work which he wrote concerning the time of the olympiads, he said in the thirteenth book: In the fourth year of the third [?] olympiad, there was a darkness at the sixth hour of the day, a Friday, and the stars appeared. Nicea and all the region of Bithynia were entirely destroyed [?], and many other places were overturned.

I have a few specific questions, too:

1. I have translated that first set of verbs in the English past tense, though they look more like what I would call a perfect (a tremblé, ont ressuscité). What is their real tense, and what is its force?

2. Is the s' in s'est reflexive (as I have it translated)? What is the tense of s'est obscurci?

3. What does ébranlées mean? I could not locate it in a French-English dictionary.

4. Does IIIe really mean third? If so, I cannot explain it.

5. Any other problems with the rest of it? Is it passable?

Thanks for any help you can render.

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

This is the passé composé (compound past) tense. It is not necessarily a perfect tense and often corresponds to an English preterite (or Greek aorist). It is probably overkill to always render a French passé composé with an English perfect.

The tense is passé composé. French reflexives often have the force of a Greek middle and are not necessarily true reflexives, but a way to convert a transitive verb into an intransitive. Dictionaries often provide separate entries for reflexives because their meanings are not always obvious to the English speaker. Here it means: "got dark" or "grew dark."

The verb ébranler means "to shake" or "to disturb." (I'm not sure what your dictionary is, but it's in my Laurousse, which I've always found handy.)

Yes. It is an abbreviation for troisième (Roman numeral plus ending).

Pretty good for never having French. Americans usually need about three years of high school French to achieve that level of proficiency...

De rien.

Stephen

Ben C Smith

That was fast.

Which is precisely what I did on my first run, and it sounded awful.

Then either Michael or his source (or the manuscripts since) seems to be in drastic error. Our other sources name olympiad 202.

Unless he means the third olympiad under Tiberius or some such (but I have not done the calculations).

This must be the same thing as the Spanish de nada.

[Retroactively:] Merci beaucoup.

You can see the results of your help at the very bottom of my page on Phlegon.

Ben.

S.C.Carlson

Scribes were generally not very adept at transmitting numbers correctly. Such discrepencies are quite common and even more frustrating.

Stephen

Huon

J. B. Chabot was an "Abbé" (not exactly Abbot, more probably priest without a parish), who wrote about 1895, on some Syriac authors.
here are two links, in french :
http://www.biblib.com/Textes/Auteurs...ellmahre_1.htm
http://www.biblib.com/Textes/Auteurs...yriaques_1.htm

If you are interested, I could help you in translating some excerpts. But I am not acquainted with this subject.

Another point : the translation of the different past tenses, in french and in english.

Usually, English preterit and French imparfait are equivalent, if the action is not finished when the speaker describes it. "he was walking in the street" would be translated by imparfait "il marchait...".

French passé simple can be an equivalent to English preterit when the action is ended. "last month, I had a tooth ache". But, if you say "j'eus mal aux dents...", everybody now will have a burst of laughter. You speak like Louis XIV (king 1643-1715) !

French passé composé is the ordinary equivalent in present language. And we usually say "j'ai eu mal aux dents..." (and it is finished).

Third point : I have nothing to add to the comments of S. C. Carlson.

I would have translated "Nicea and the entire region of Bithynia were shaken"...

Ben C Smith

That may come in handy. I occasionally run across a passage whose only translation happens to be in French (sometimes German).

Thanks.

S.C.Carlson

That's good to hear. I was wondering about that.

Stephen

Rudolph

Ebranler does indeed mean to shake or disturb (and from the same root you get branleur, which means wanker!), but it's a very strong word, and really means that the shaking and disturbing is to the very core of what is being shaken or disturbed, if that makes sense... but otherwise, very good translation!

Rudolph

And FYI, if you're planning on doing any more translation and want to better understand french conjugation, I have to recommend you get a book called 'Bescherelle' Volume 2. It's the most complete guide to french conjugation anywhere, and is thus duly hated by all french school children!

Cycad

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From the same root you get branleur, which means wanker!
Unquote

Branler to wank
Branleur wanker

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What does ébranlées mean? I could not locate it in a French-English dictionary
Unquote

Maybe you have the fundis french dictionary ?

:rolling: