S.C.Carlson

Not quite sure I understand you, but the Gospels don't present any words spoken from Jesus to Paul.

Stephen

Ben C Smith

No, I already told you what I prefer. I prefer a nuanced and balanced approach to studying the ancients, with their interpretive grids squarely in mind as we study them.

I said many if not most.

1. Not all tend to ignore such people.
2. Our interpretive grid is different. (When I catch a very real sickness, I interpret it according to the standards of my day; when Paul caught a very real malady of some kind, which he metaphorically characterized as a thorn in the flesh, he interpreted it according to the standards of his day.)

Well, of course they do, if they suspect on other grounds (such as synoptic witness) that the saying in Paul came from an HJ. Many scholars think that Paul is not claiming the saying in 1 Thessalonians 4, for example, as a saying from the HJ, but rather as a saying from the risen Lord. Those scholars do not look for an historical situation in Galilee for the saying. The scholars who think this saying is a variant of the synoptic apocalyptic discourse, OTOH, do often look for an historical situation in Galilee.

Ben.

Toto

How productive is this thread? Stephen Carr is trying to get intelligent Christians to explain the basis of their religious beliefs, if the people who wrote their sacred texts would be classed as insane in modern times.

Is this an unfair question? If so, why?

Toto

But taking this interpretive grid into account, one must surely discount the truth value of what they wrote, or its relevance to our time, right?

Steven Carr

I have seen lots as well.

Do any say Paul thought he was being tormented by a real angel from Satan?

Steven Carr

Not all of them would be classed as insane surely?

Ben C Smith

Discount? Probably too strong a word. Relativize? Of course!

Ben.

Ben C Smith

I must have missed the part where Steven clarified that he was mentally time-transporting these ancient people to modern times. AFAICS, he simply implied that they were insane, period.

He even said that sanity had hit the human race at some point, before which point I presume the human race was collectively insane.

Ben.

Toto

Believing that Satan causes an illness might be a cultural value, or an honest mistake. But hearing voices directly from God - is that ever sane?

I guess that believing someone else who claims to hear voices from God could be a cultural value and not an indication of insanity. But surely it is not an indication of a well founded belief that we should respect?

Most of us have enough confidence in our modern values to say that the Afganistani policy of shutting down schools for girls and confining all women indoors, to the point where their health is affected by lack of sunlight, is based on a delusion. Do we have to give a pass to ancient cultures for some reason?

But in any case, why does anyone think they know what Paul was talking about here?

ETA - sometimes I am convinced that the human race IS collectively insane.

Ben C Smith

Give a pass to ancient cultures? They are no longer around to give a pass to. I think we should seek to understand ancient cultures on their own terms before jerking to inappropriate labels such as insane.

Ben.