Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Carrie · 09-25-2003, 04:42 PM

MON CHI CHI

OH MY GOODNESS ARE YOU SERIOUS?! WHERE DO I START?! YOU NEED TO DO SOME SERIOUS RESEARCH HONEY. I'M A FORMER FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN (6 YEARS) SO I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

FIRST OF ALL, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE BIBLE. I CAME TO SEE THAT IT'S JUST NOT FROM GOD. IT CAN'T BE. THERE'S SOOOO MUCH THAT IS WRONG WITH IT.

I'LL SHOW YOU. IF YOU WILL JUST TAKE SOME TIME TO DO SOME RESEARCH, LIKE I DID, YOU'LL SEE THE PROBLEMS WITH THE BIBLE. BUT YOU PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO DO THIS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO DOUBT, AND EVEN IF SOMEONE GAVE YOU THE BEST EVIDENCE YOU WOULD TRY TO CLING TO YOUR BELIEFS EVEN IF IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE ANYMORE.

BUT I'LL TRY TO HELP YOU SEE REALITY ANYWAY.

I WROTE THE FOLLOWING POSTS A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND I MUST SAY THEY ARE QUITE GOOD. I WOULD NEVER HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO EXPLAIN THIS STUFF ALL OVER AGAIN, SO JUST CHECK THEM OUT.

HOPEFULLY YOU CAN LINK RIGHT TO THESE, BUT IF IT DOESN'T WORK, GO TO: members - carrie - find posts search - and then look for these threads:

Hmm suddenly things that didn�t exist in the O.T. exist in the New.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=48317

Smashing and bashing Matthew 24

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=48356

Christians will give me lots of shit for this one

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=47609

Pop the cherry

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46489

David got off like O.J. Simpson

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46709

It�s okay to make idols for others?

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46712

Who are you to talk back to God?

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46531

Romans 9 and free will

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46521

Jesus didn�t think he was God

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46453

Jesus� prayer wasn�t answered

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46456

John the baptist rose from the dead?

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46459

Carrie · 09-25-2003, 05:08 PM

And another thing Mon Chi Chi -

THAT is just a start. You still have all the prophecies that didn't come true. Like Tyre was supposed to be destroyed totally back in the Old Testament and never to be inhabited again, but the place still existed in Jesus day because the N.T. speaks of people who came from there to see Jesus. And Bayblon being destroyed forever and not even animals will live there ever again and it won't be rebuilt. Please. People and animals live there now. There's a hotel there, and Sadaam rebuilt Nebuchanezer's palace and it stands to this day, unless we just bombed it.

ALSO, you need to do a lot of reading. Other books, besides the Bible. For example, Archaeology DOES NOT support the Bible and you could read a book like "The Bible Unearthed" to see the evidence for this claim. Basically it shows that most of the O.T. was written around 700 B.C. by priests who wanted to give Israel a history, so they based it somewhat on facts and mostly on fiction and gave themselves a glorified history. If this sounds far fetched, read the book and see for yourself and it will all make sense.

THEN you have to try to figure out what the deal is with Jesus.
Why, if he wasn't the savior, did people go about preaching about him? Why is Christianity so huge today? Read a book called, "The Jesus Puzzle" or maybe "Historical Jesus" (two different theories) and those books do a good job explaining how Jesus was not who you think.

Look at it this way: You automatically assume that the Muslim religion is wrong. And they automatically assume you are wrong. But you've never read the Koran. You just look at it and say, "oh that can't be from God." You'd demand more of a Muslim to prove to you their religion is from God. You'd want them to show you that the Koran is reliable and good. But you can't even show me that the Bible is reliable and good. I can tell it's not from God.
And if the Muslim religion isn't from God, then why is it so huge? Why does it change so many lives for the better? Why did people go around all excited preaching about Mohammad? How did the Koran come about if not from God? You assume it was made up. So why shouldn't I assme the Bible was made up by man? It was after all, just like all religions are man made.

AND BY THE WAY, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE TO SHOW YOU WHY THE BIBLE IS ILLOGICAL, MESSED UP, NOT FROM GOD, WE COULD LITERALLY GO ON FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS WITH THIS THREAD GIVING YOU ALL KINDS OF WISDOM, BUT WHY SHOULD WE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT AND THINK ON IT AND ARE DETERMINED TO BE STUCK IN YOUR WAYS NO MATTER WHAT?

Doctor X · 09-25-2003, 05:59 PM

Yet another "hit and run."

Perchance he imagines he won some victory by making a challenge he never bothered to answer?

--J.D.

DBT · 09-25-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn

OK. So what are you going to do about it—cry? [/B]

No I would say the usual thing that happens,go off and create a feelgood fantasy and everything is sweet.

Rational BAC · 09-25-2003, 07:10 PM

I agree totally that the Bible is errant, full of foolishness and some immorality and certainly not divinely inspired.

But that has nothing to do with being a believing Christian. (with the exception of Christian fundamentalists of course)

In no way is it necessary to believe in an inerrant Bible, inspired by God, to be a Christian.

Weltall · 09-25-2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
Yet another "hit and run."

Perchance he imagines he won some victory by making a challenge he never bothered to answer?

--J.D.

That makes it the second time I've seen him do so. Only 3 posts and he started two threads on this same topic and never replied.

Goober · 09-25-2003, 07:36 PM

Deuteronomy 24:16

"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

God commands that everyone is responsible for their own sins; no one will be judged for the sins of their fathers, yet god happily ignores his own rules and punishes everyone for someone their relative did thousands of years ago. How petty. And people think that this is logical?

Mullibok · 09-25-2003, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mon chi chi
Christianity: there is one perfect God, in three persons...

And that passes a logic test?

Quote:

Originally posted by mon chi chi
3.) Theological. If you actually look at both Rabbinical tradition AND Torah prophecy, Jesus fulfilled every expectation that was in line with the Torah.

Especially the whole everlasting covenant part.

Gamer4Fire · 09-26-2003, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mon chi chi
Buddhism: Look at it...yeah.

So the noble eightfold path is a joke? It seems to make a lot of sense to a lot people, otherwise they wouldn't be buddhist.

BrazenPenguin · 09-27-2003, 11:03 AM

Mullibok and Brian_iiiii---------

I am 100% male and 100% son and 100% brother and 100% nephew and 100% high-schooler and 100% human and 100% American and 100% friend and will probably someday be 100% husband and 100% father. But at the same time I will still be the same person. How is this logical? Everybody knows that all of this adds up to one thousand. Are you saying that I am 10% male and 10% son and 10% brother ect.? If you aren�t, how can I be all these things at the same time and still be the same person? You tell me.

Also, all of you who have pointed out how Christianity is illogical. Way to go. I think you are exactly right. Even though I am a Christian, and could probably be considered a fundamentalist, I don't believe that Christianity is logical. What is so logical about a person rising from the dead? That is scientifically impossible! What is so logical about a perfect god dying for his creation? Nothing is logical about that. I don't think that something has to logical to be real. In my TOK class at school we discussed whether love was logical or not, we didn't come to a decision, we sort of saw it both ways. But, if love isn't logical, does it not exist? Sometimes kindness is illogical, why would somebody give a dollar to a person on the street they didn't know? That�s illogical but nobody would say, hey, don't give him money, that�s illogical. It is illogical to me that when I press a key on this keyboard it pops up on the screen. But to a computer engineer, or somebody who knows a ton about computers, it would make perfect sense because they would know and understand exactly what happens. Just because something seems illogical to us, doesn't mean it is illogical or doesn't exist.

Rational BAC ------

How can you call yourself a Christain and say that your Bible is errant and not divinely inspired? It clearly says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." This seems pretty straight-forward to me. If your Bible is errant and not divinely inspired, as you say it is, then this verse is not true. If this verse is not true, then how do you know that any other verse is true? You wouldn�t! Therefore falsifying your religion.

However, I do believe that since the Bible was translated from other languages that are very different from English in vocabulary and grammar and word-usage (and if this is what you were talking about when you said the Bible was errant, Rational BAC, then I interpreted you wrong and am sorry) so yeah, I guess there are �mistakes� but they are insignificant and do not change the meaning of the Bible.

09-27-2003, 11:03 AM	#50
BrazenPenguin Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Wilson, NC (but not for long!) Posts: 48	logical? Mullibok and Brian_iiiii--------- I am 100% male and 100% son and 100% brother and 100% nephew and 100% high-schooler and 100% human and 100% American and 100% friend and will probably someday be 100% husband and 100% father. But at the same time I will still be the same person. How is this logical? Everybody knows that all of this adds up to one thousand. Are you saying that I am 10% male and 10% son and 10% brother ect.? If you aren�t, how can I be all these things at the same time and still be the same person? You tell me. Also, all of you who have pointed out how Christianity is illogical. Way to go. I think you are exactly right. Even though I am a Christian, and could probably be considered a fundamentalist, I don't believe that Christianity is logical. What is so logical about a person rising from the dead? That is scientifically impossible! What is so logical about a perfect god dying for his creation? Nothing is logical about that. I don't think that something has to logical to be real. In my TOK class at school we discussed whether love was logical or not, we didn't come to a decision, we sort of saw it both ways. But, if love isn't logical, does it not exist? Sometimes kindness is illogical, why would somebody give a dollar to a person on the street they didn't know? That�s illogical but nobody would say, hey, don't give him money, that�s illogical. It is illogical to me that when I press a key on this keyboard it pops up on the screen. But to a computer engineer, or somebody who knows a ton about computers, it would make perfect sense because they would know and understand exactly what happens. Just because something seems illogical to us, doesn't mean it is illogical or doesn't exist. Rational BAC ------ How can you call yourself a Christain and say that your Bible is errant and not divinely inspired? It clearly says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." This seems pretty straight-forward to me. If your Bible is errant and not divinely inspired, as you say it is, then this verse is not true. If this verse is not true, then how do you know that any other verse is true? You wouldn�t! Therefore falsifying your religion. However, I do believe that since the Bible was translated from other languages that are very different from English in vocabulary and grammar and word-usage (and if this is what you were talking about when you said the Bible was errant, Rational BAC, then I interpreted you wrong and am sorry) so yeah, I guess there are �mistakes� but they are insignificant and do not change the meaning of the Bible.

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09-25-2003, 04:42 PM	#41
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	MON CHI CHI OH MY GOODNESS ARE YOU SERIOUS?! WHERE DO I START?! YOU NEED TO DO SOME SERIOUS RESEARCH HONEY. I'M A FORMER FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN (6 YEARS) SO I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. FIRST OF ALL, THE PROBLEM IS WITH THE BIBLE. I CAME TO SEE THAT IT'S JUST NOT FROM GOD. IT CAN'T BE. THERE'S SOOOO MUCH THAT IS WRONG WITH IT. I'LL SHOW YOU. IF YOU WILL JUST TAKE SOME TIME TO DO SOME RESEARCH, LIKE I DID, YOU'LL SEE THE PROBLEMS WITH THE BIBLE. BUT YOU PROBABLY DON'T WANT TO DO THIS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO DOUBT, AND EVEN IF SOMEONE GAVE YOU THE BEST EVIDENCE YOU WOULD TRY TO CLING TO YOUR BELIEFS EVEN IF IT DIDN'T MAKE SENSE ANYMORE. BUT I'LL TRY TO HELP YOU SEE REALITY ANYWAY. I WROTE THE FOLLOWING POSTS A FEW MONTHS AGO, AND I MUST SAY THEY ARE QUITE GOOD. I WOULD NEVER HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO EXPLAIN THIS STUFF ALL OVER AGAIN, SO JUST CHECK THEM OUT. HOPEFULLY YOU CAN LINK RIGHT TO THESE, BUT IF IT DOESN'T WORK, GO TO: members - carrie - find posts search - and then look for these threads: Hmm suddenly things that didn�t exist in the O.T. exist in the New. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=48317 Smashing and bashing Matthew 24 http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=48356 Christians will give me lots of shit for this one http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=47609 Pop the cherry http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46489 David got off like O.J. Simpson http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46709 It�s okay to make idols for others? http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46712 Who are you to talk back to God? http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46531 Romans 9 and free will http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46521 Jesus didn�t think he was God http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46453 Jesus� prayer wasn�t answered http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46456 John the baptist rose from the dead? http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...threadid=46459

09-25-2003, 05:08 PM	#42
Carrie Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Midwest Posts: 424	And another thing Mon Chi Chi - THAT is just a start. You still have all the prophecies that didn't come true. Like Tyre was supposed to be destroyed totally back in the Old Testament and never to be inhabited again, but the place still existed in Jesus day because the N.T. speaks of people who came from there to see Jesus. And Bayblon being destroyed forever and not even animals will live there ever again and it won't be rebuilt. Please. People and animals live there now. There's a hotel there, and Sadaam rebuilt Nebuchanezer's palace and it stands to this day, unless we just bombed it. ALSO, you need to do a lot of reading. Other books, besides the Bible. For example, Archaeology DOES NOT support the Bible and you could read a book like "The Bible Unearthed" to see the evidence for this claim. Basically it shows that most of the O.T. was written around 700 B.C. by priests who wanted to give Israel a history, so they based it somewhat on facts and mostly on fiction and gave themselves a glorified history. If this sounds far fetched, read the book and see for yourself and it will all make sense. THEN you have to try to figure out what the deal is with Jesus. Why, if he wasn't the savior, did people go about preaching about him? Why is Christianity so huge today? Read a book called, "The Jesus Puzzle" or maybe "Historical Jesus" (two different theories) and those books do a good job explaining how Jesus was not who you think. Look at it this way: You automatically assume that the Muslim religion is wrong. And they automatically assume you are wrong. But you've never read the Koran. You just look at it and say, "oh that can't be from God." You'd demand more of a Muslim to prove to you their religion is from God. You'd want them to show you that the Koran is reliable and good. But you can't even show me that the Bible is reliable and good. I can tell it's not from God. And if the Muslim religion isn't from God, then why is it so huge? Why does it change so many lives for the better? Why did people go around all excited preaching about Mohammad? How did the Koran come about if not from God? You assume it was made up. So why shouldn't I assme the Bible was made up by man? It was after all, just like all religions are man made. AND BY THE WAY, IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR PEOPLE TO SHOW YOU WHY THE BIBLE IS ILLOGICAL, MESSED UP, NOT FROM GOD, WE COULD LITERALLY GO ON FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS WITH THIS THREAD GIVING YOU ALL KINDS OF WISDOM, BUT WHY SHOULD WE IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT AND THINK ON IT AND ARE DETERMINED TO BE STUCK IN YOUR WAYS NO MATTER WHAT?

09-25-2003, 05:59 PM	#43
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	Yet another "hit and run." Perchance he imagines he won some victory by making a challenge he never bothered to answer? --J.D.

09-25-2003, 07:10 PM	#45
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I agree totally that the Bible is errant, full of foolishness and some immorality and certainly not divinely inspired. But that has nothing to do with being a believing Christian. (with the exception of Christian fundamentalists of course) In no way is it necessary to believe in an inerrant Bible, inspired by God, to be a Christian.

09-25-2003, 07:36 PM	#47
Goober Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,202	Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." God commands that everyone is responsible for their own sins; no one will be judged for the sins of their fathers, yet god happily ignores his own rules and punishes everyone for someone their relative did thousands of years ago. How petty. And people think that this is logical?

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