Freethought & Rationalism Archive

aa5874 · 07-05-2010, 10:12 PM

Once we strip HJ from all the embellishments then we are left with nothing but a man who did nothing to be worshipd as a God.

1. HJ was not born of the Holy Spirit but possibly through fornication.

2. HJ did not heal any incurable diseases.

3.HJ did not walk on the sea.

4. HJ did not curse a tree so that it died.

5. HJ did not raise Lazarus from the dead.

6. HJ was not the Creator of heaven and earth.

7. HJ was not equal to God.

8. HJ could not resurrect.

9. HJ could not ascend through the clouds.

10. HJ was not a Messiah.

11. HJ could not have died for the sins of ALL mankind.

12. HJ's disciples had abandoned him and Peter had denied ever knowing him three times when he was arrested.

13 . HJ was just a mad-man claiming he was the son of God, that he would be raised from the dead on the third day and coming in the clouds sitting or standing on the right hand of power who was eventually executed for blasphemy.

Now, in order for people to worship HJ as their Messiah, Lord and Saviour, Creator of heaven and earth and equal to God there MUST be embellishments. And it is necessary that people believe the embellishments.

Someone has to start to make stuff up about HJ.

Someone has got to invent fabulous stories about HJ.

Someone will have to write fiction about HJ.

And we have the records of the fiction stories about HJ in gMatthew, gMark, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles, All the Epistles and Revelation.

Without these fantastic fiction stories it was most likely that HJ would be considered a mere mad-man and blasphemer.

But, the fantastic fabulous fiction stories do not require an actual HJ, it is just necessary that the embellishments are believed to be true.

An actual HJ could not have been the offspring of the Holy Ghost so there need NOT be an HJ to make such a fantastic story, only that people believe there was an HJ who was the offspring of the Holy Ghost.

In effect, the HJ NEEDS the mythological Jesus for the Gospel story.

HJ needs people to MAKE UP STUFF, write fiction, and say that he was the offspring of the Holy Ghost, that he was on the pinnacle of the Temple with the Devil, that he walked on water, that he transfigured, that he healed incurable diseases, turned water into wine, that he cursed a tree and it died, that he raised Lazarus from the dead, that he predicted he would be raised from the dead and that he did resurrect and ascended to heaven.

But, the mythological Jesus does NOT need HJ for the Gospel story. The mythological Jesus just need fabulous myths that are believable in antiquity.

MJ can do anything once it is believable.

The NT Canon does not need an HJ for their mythological fables since HJ could not have done the things MJ did anyway.

A human Jesus is just useless in the NT Canon. Only the mythological Jesus is needed.

mountainman · 07-06-2010, 06:10 AM

aa5874 · 07-08-2010, 06:37 PM

It would appear I have been making a serious error.

I was of the erroneous opinion that the story of Jesus from conception to ascension was just about belief but I was found to be completely wrong after I re-examined the ending of the Gospel stories, especially the ending of gMark.

The Jesus story from conception to ascension is that all events about Jesus were WITNESSED.

1.Mary is a witness to the Holy Ghost conception.

2. The disciples are witnesses of Jesus walking on water.

3. Peter, James and John are witnesses to the transfiguration.

4. The disciples are the witnesses to the AFTERLIFE of the resurrected.

There are no hallucinations, they are witnesses.

In the NT Canon, the resurrection of Jesus was not an embellishment it was a fact.

What MYTH!!!.

HJ was witnessed by the disciples and Paul in a resurrected state.

HJ could not have been worshiped as a God without those who witnessed the resurrected JESUS, without the witnesses of MJ.

aa5874 · 07-09-2010, 12:24 AM

The most significant event in the NT Canon is the supposed ACTUAL resurrection of Jesus and WITNESSED by the disciples and the Pauline writer. No other event had such massive impact.

When one examines the Synoptics it would be noted that after Jesus supposedly did AMAZING miracles by healing many incurable diseases, bringing the dead back to life, walked on water and transfigured in front of the disciples, Jesus was still abandoned when he was arrested. And when he died, the visitors did not even expect Jesus to have been RAISED from the dead. They were expecting to see the body of Jesus.

Jesus would have just been an ordinary man who had died.

There would have been no gospel just some visitors to pay respect to the dead according to Jewish customs.

But, everything changed when the supposed disciples ACTUALLY saw Jesus after he was RAISED from the dead. The disciples finally had GOOD NEWS for the Jews

Everything changed when the supposed disciples ACTUALLY saw the RISEN Jesus eating FISH.

The ACTUAL resurrection of Jesus was the GOOD NEWS, the Gospel of truth.

Many may have claimed to have done the deeds of Jesus but they did not RESURRECT.

There was GOOD NEWS for the Jews.

The MYTHOLOGICAL Jesus could resurrect. Only the MYTH Jesus can have GOOD NEWS for the Jews.

aa5874 · 07-09-2010, 09:27 AM

When the Pauline writings are examined it will be noticed that is was the MYTHOLOGY called the RESURRECTION of Jesus that was the FUNDAMENTAL basis, the LIFELINE, for the Pauline Teachings, the gospel of Paul, and SALVATION of ALL Mankind.

Examine 1 Cor. 15.

1Co 15:14 -

Quote:

And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

1Co 15:17 -

Quote:

And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain, ye are yet in your sins.

Salvation of mankind is DIRECTLY based on the resurrection.

Ro 10:9 -

Quote:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The resurrection must have happened for "Paul" to have RECEIVED his gospel and his apostleship.

Ga 1:1 -

Quote:

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead....

Galatians 1.11-12

Quote:

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

There would be NO GOOD NEWS without the "actual" resurrection.

HJ needs MJ.

aa5874 · 07-09-2010, 09:27 PM

HJers claim Jesus was just a man well if that is so then Jesus died for his own sins and there has been no universal salvation. The Gospel story was a farce.

Thousands of Jews were probably crucified and Josephus mentioned that he SAW many crucified in "Life of Flavius Josephus."

"Life of Flavius Josephus" 75

Quote:

...And when I was sent by Titus Caesar with Cerealins, and a thousand horsemen, to a certain village called Thecoa, in order to know whether it were a place fit for a camp, as I came back, I saw many captives crucified, and remembered three of them as my former acquaintance.

I was very sorry at this in my mind, and went with tears in my eyes to Titus, and told him of them; so he immediately commanded them to be taken down, and to have the greatest care taken of them, in order to their recovery; yet two of them died under the physician's hands, while the third recovered.

Based on Josephus, a Jew who was crucified and who even recovered was not even mentioned by name or given any special attention or title or was worshiped as a God because he survived a crucifixion. Not a single thing is written about the crucifixion survivor in any other works of Josephus.

Now, Jesus of the NT was supposedly ALREADY DEAD when Joseph got his body from the cross and buried it. Which Roman citizen would have worshiped a dead Jew as a God and declared him the Creator of heaven and earth, equal to God, before the Fall of the Temple?

The HJ theory needs the Jesus MYTH. Even in the NT Canon, the disciples were hiding in a house with the doors shut tight waiting for MYTHOLOGY JESUS to appear.

And the MYTH JESUS did appear from nowhere and walked straight through the house, like a real Holy Ghost.

John 20:19 -

Quote:

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

The MYTH JESUS took away all their tears and fears.

The MYTH JESUS gave the AFTERLIFE to the Jesus cult.

HJ clings to MJ for survival.

mountainman · 07-13-2010, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The HJ theory needs the Jesus MYTH. Even in the NT Canon, the disciples were hiding in a house with the doors shut tight waiting for MYTHOLOGY JESUS to appear.

And the MYTH JESUS did appear from nowhere and walked straight through the house, like a real Holy Ghost.

The problem with this line of argument is that there are people who have managed to convince themselves that the Holy Ghost not only was an historical Holy Ghost, but that modern history is still being written in which the same Holy Ghost is still walking through walls to be with his disciples in spirit.

Maybe we need to examine the existence of the "Psychological Jesus" who dwells within the human psyche. Or perhaps this may resolve to the "Conditioned Psychological Jesus" because children brought up in isolation from the authority of bible conditioning seem to be reasonably normal.

Littlejohn · 07-13-2010, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The problem with this line of argument is that there are people who have managed to convince themselves that the Holy Ghost not only was an historical Holy Ghost, but that modern history is still being written in which the same Holy Ghost is still walking through walls to be with his disciples in spirit.

Maybe we need to examine the existence of the "Psychological Jesus" who dwells within the human psyche. Or perhaps this may resolve to the "Conditioned Psychological Jesus" because children brought up in isolation from the authority of bible conditioning seem to be reasonably normal.
.

From the way you put things, it would seem that for you all those who claim that Jesus was a real historical character, automatically they also believe in the Holy Spirit, in the divinity of Jesus, his resurrection, the 'trinity', etc.. etc..

From this we should infer that you, who believe in the historicity of Caesar Octavian Augustus, automatically believe that he was a God of the Roman Pantheon, as the Romans, after his death, raised him to the level of God and for him built temples, where they worship his statues, like the other gods ...

Greetings

Littlejohn

.

aa5874 · 07-13-2010, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The HJ theory needs the Jesus MYTH. Even in the NT Canon, the disciples were hiding in a house with the doors shut tight waiting for MYTHOLOGY JESUS to appear.

And the MYTH JESUS did appear from nowhere and walked straight through the house, like a real Holy Ghost.

The problem with this line of argument is that there are people who have managed to convince themselves that the Holy Ghost not only was an historical Holy Ghost, but that modern history is still being written in which the same Holy Ghost is still walking through walls to be with his disciples in spirit.

Maybe we need to examine the existence of the "Psychological Jesus" who dwells within the human psyche. Or perhaps this may resolve to the "Conditioned Psychological Jesus" because children brought up in isolation from the authority of bible conditioning seem to be reasonably normal.

There is no need to examine the existence of "the Psycholigical Jesus" since then intention of this thread is just to simply show that the MJ THEORY is Far Superior to the HJ THEORY.

The Gospel, the Good News, was directly dependent upon the RESURRECTION of Jesus.

All the Gospel stories clearly show that BEFORE Jesus was RAISED from the dead that there was NO Gospel, NO Good News, even though it was claimed Jesus cured many incurable diseases and even raised Lazarus from the dead.

Yet, without the Resurrection, a non-historical event, the disciples were trembling with fear and hiding in a house for fear.

A non-historical event is the basis for the Gospel story and it was NOT A VISION, the non-historical resurrected Jesus ATE FOOD in the presence of the disciples and Thomas TOUCHED his ALREADY healed SCARS.

MJ clings to HJ.

mountainman · 07-13-2010, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

The problem with this line of argument is that there are people who have managed to convince themselves that the Holy Ghost not only was an historical Holy Ghost, but that modern history is still being written in which the same Holy Ghost is still walking through walls to be with his disciples in spirit.

Maybe we need to examine the existence of the "Psychological Jesus" who dwells within the human psyche. Or perhaps this may resolve to the "Conditioned Psychological Jesus" because children brought up in isolation from the authority of bible conditioning seem to be reasonably normal.

There is no need to examine the existence of "the Psycholigical Jesus" since then intention of this thread is just to simply show that the MJ THEORY is Far Superior to the HJ THEORY.

But I am sure there must be people here who believe in an historical Holy Ghost. And even if at the end of the day such a belief cannot be deemed to be anything other than a non universal and individual psychological compulsion, then we need to address the "Psychological Jesus" and fit this into the overall picture. We may be dealing with conditioned minds.

07-05-2010, 10:12 PM	#1
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	HJ clings to MJ for survival. Once we strip HJ from all the embellishments then we are left with nothing but a man who did nothing to be worshipd as a God. 1. HJ was not born of the Holy Spirit but possibly through fornication. 2. HJ did not heal any incurable diseases. 3.HJ did not walk on the sea. 4. HJ did not curse a tree so that it died. 5. HJ did not raise Lazarus from the dead. 6. HJ was not the Creator of heaven and earth. 7. HJ was not equal to God. 8. HJ could not resurrect. 9. HJ could not ascend through the clouds. 10. HJ was not a Messiah. 11. HJ could not have died for the sins of ALL mankind. 12. HJ's disciples had abandoned him and Peter had denied ever knowing him three times when he was arrested. 13 . HJ was just a mad-man claiming he was the son of God, that he would be raised from the dead on the third day and coming in the clouds sitting or standing on the right hand of power who was eventually executed for blasphemy. Now, in order for people to worship HJ as their Messiah, Lord and Saviour, Creator of heaven and earth and equal to God there MUST be embellishments. And it is necessary that people believe the embellishments. Someone has to start to make stuff up about HJ. Someone has got to invent fabulous stories about HJ. Someone will have to write fiction about HJ. And we have the records of the fiction stories about HJ in gMatthew, gMark, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles, All the Epistles and Revelation. Without these fantastic fiction stories it was most likely that HJ would be considered a mere mad-man and blasphemer. But, the fantastic fabulous fiction stories do not require an actual HJ, it is just necessary that the embellishments are believed to be true. An actual HJ could not have been the offspring of the Holy Ghost so there need NOT be an HJ to make such a fantastic story, only that people believe there was an HJ who was the offspring of the Holy Ghost. In effect, the HJ NEEDS the mythological Jesus for the Gospel story. HJ needs people to MAKE UP STUFF, write fiction, and say that he was the offspring of the Holy Ghost, that he was on the pinnacle of the Temple with the Devil, that he walked on water, that he transfigured, that he healed incurable diseases, turned water into wine, that he cursed a tree and it died, that he raised Lazarus from the dead, that he predicted he would be raised from the dead and that he did resurrect and ascended to heaven. But, the mythological Jesus does NOT need HJ for the Gospel story. The mythological Jesus just need fabulous myths that are believable in antiquity. MJ can do anything once it is believable. The NT Canon does not need an HJ for their mythological fables since HJ could not have done the things MJ did anyway. A human Jesus is just useless in the NT Canon. Only the mythological Jesus is needed.

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07-06-2010, 06:10 AM	#2
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192

07-08-2010, 06:37 PM	#3
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	It would appear I have been making a serious error. I was of the erroneous opinion that the story of Jesus from conception to ascension was just about belief but I was found to be completely wrong after I re-examined the ending of the Gospel stories, especially the ending of gMark. The Jesus story from conception to ascension is that all events about Jesus were WITNESSED. 1.Mary is a witness to the Holy Ghost conception. 2. The disciples are witnesses of Jesus walking on water. 3. Peter, James and John are witnesses to the transfiguration. 4. The disciples are the witnesses to the AFTERLIFE of the resurrected. There are no hallucinations, they are witnesses. In the NT Canon, the resurrection of Jesus was not an embellishment it was a fact. What MYTH!!!. HJ was witnessed by the disciples and Paul in a resurrected state. HJ could not have been worshiped as a God without those who witnessed the resurrected JESUS, without the witnesses of MJ.

07-09-2010, 12:24 AM	#4
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	The most significant event in the NT Canon is the supposed ACTUAL resurrection of Jesus and WITNESSED by the disciples and the Pauline writer. No other event had such massive impact. When one examines the Synoptics it would be noted that after Jesus supposedly did AMAZING miracles by healing many incurable diseases, bringing the dead back to life, walked on water and transfigured in front of the disciples, Jesus was still abandoned when he was arrested. And when he died, the visitors did not even expect Jesus to have been RAISED from the dead. They were expecting to see the body of Jesus. Jesus would have just been an ordinary man who had died. There would have been no gospel just some visitors to pay respect to the dead according to Jewish customs. But, everything changed when the supposed disciples ACTUALLY saw Jesus after he was RAISED from the dead. The disciples finally had GOOD NEWS for the Jews Everything changed when the supposed disciples ACTUALLY saw the RISEN Jesus eating FISH. The ACTUAL resurrection of Jesus was the GOOD NEWS, the Gospel of truth. Many may have claimed to have done the deeds of Jesus but they did not RESURRECT. There was GOOD NEWS for the Jews. The MYTHOLOGICAL Jesus could resurrect. Only the MYTH Jesus can have GOOD NEWS for the Jews.

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