Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 07-15-2004, 09:58 PM

Jeremiah 7:18 (NIV)
The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger.

Who was the Queen of heaven?

Celsus · 07-15-2004, 10:30 PM

The two goddesses of the period known with some relation were Astarte and Ishtar. Astarte was also the main goddess to have carried the title "Queen of Heaven" in extant texts (Anat and Ishtar also bearing the title occasionally). Presumably, they were worshipping either of these (or a combination of them)--see Jeremiah 44:15-28. Less likely is a connection with Anat. If we equate the Queen of Heaven with one of the two, we might be able to say more, but otherwise, from internal evidence alone, she appears to be a cosmic protection deity, whose continued veneration was required to maintain her protection (note the Judahites worshipping her from Egypt), and whose favour could be regained. Most likely, the cult was family based, and female.

Joel

Celsus · 07-16-2004, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Answerer

I can't really recall (I read it a few years ago) but I think she was called by some names, Anath/Asherah or Shekinah or Matronit by the Canaanites and Jews of the Solomon's times.

I'm not convinced by the Asherah connection. Is your source Freedman?

Joel

Magdlyn · 07-16-2004, 07:26 AM

Books I recommend on the subject of Hebrew/Canaanitie goddesses:

When God Was A Woman, by Stone

The Hebrew Goddess, by Patai

Magdlyn · 07-16-2004, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Answerer

I can't really recall (I read it a few years ago) but I think she was called by some names, Anath/Asherah or Shekinah or Matronit by the Canaanites and Jews of the Solomon's times.

The Shekinah was a CE goddess--the Presence of YHWH. A Kabbalistic concept.

The Matronit name is obviously taken from Latin.

Warthur · 07-16-2004, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

The Shekinah was a CE goddess--the Presence of YHWH. A Kabbalistic concept.

I've been hanging out with the wrong crowd for too long. I initially read that as "The Shekinah was a Chaotic Evil goddess".

spin · 07-16-2004, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

The two goddesses of the period known with some relation were Astarte and Ishtar.

Actually these are two and the same diety, just different forms of the name, representing the different cultures they were found. The name group also includes Ashteroth (and ultimately Esther). These are all functionally cognates each with alef-shin-taw-resh. (The final taw is only a feminine marker.)

Ishtar is linked with Venus/Lucifer/Eosforos and as such would be the queen of heaven.

The problem is that there is a lot of synchretism. Ashteroth and Asherah (seen at Kuntillet Ajrud with a suffix in the form Ashratah) get confused a lot, so it may be that the queen of heaven is the both of them combined . . .

spin

Jackalope · 07-17-2004, 01:25 AM

Don't forget Qadesh, as well...

Quoting from The Hebrew Goddess, by Raphael Patai, pg.63:

Quote:

The last Biblical reference to Astarte-Anath does not contain either of these names but refers to the goddess as "Queen of Heaven." As we shall recall, the title of "Lady of Heaven" was given to Anath and Astarte by their Egyptian worshipers, which makes it more likely that the "Queen of Heaven" who formed the subject of a heated argument between Jeremiah and his Judean fellow-refugees in Egypt was none other than the "virgin Anath," the "maid" Astarte. Jeremiah was convinced, and tried to convince also the remnant of Judah in Egypt, that the great national catastrophe that had befallen them had come about as a punishment by Yaweh for the people's sin of idolatry. Unless they would repent, the prophet warned them, they would all perish in Egypt as the others had in Judea.

But the people's interpretation of of the downfall of Judea was diametrically opposed to that of Jeremiah. They too recognized that the calamity that had overtaken them was a divine punishment for a religious sin, but a sin which, they felt, they had committed against the Queen of Heaven and not against Yaweh. The answer given to Jeremiah by "all the people that dwelt in the Land of Egypt, in Pathros" therefore was:

As for the word that you have spoken to us in the name of Yaweh -- we shall not listen to you. But we shall without fail to everthing as we said: we shall burn incense to the Queen of Heaven, and shall pour her libations as we used to do, we, our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, and we all were well and saw no evil. But since we ceased burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and to pour her libations, we have wanted everything and have been consumed by sword and famine.

To these words the women added:

Is it that we alone burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and pour her libations? Is it without our husbands that we make her cakes in her images and that we pour her libations?

jbernier · 07-19-2004, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celsus

If we equate the Queen of Heaven with one of the two, we might be able to say more, but otherwise, from internal evidence alone, she appears to be a cosmic protection deity, whose continued veneration was required to maintain her protection (note the Judahites worshipping her from Egypt), and whose favour could be regained.

This is, by far, the most sensible thing said in this thread. We simply do not know that much about early Israelite religion; the successive layers of editing have obliterated a significant amount of the evidence. The truth is that the "Queen of Heaven=Astarte or Ishtar (who may or may not have been the same deity)" analogy seems likely (at least to my mind); nonetheless, it is far from certain based upon the extant evidence. My suspicion is that she was YHWH's consort in earlier expressions of Israelite worship but with the later monotheistic trends of the Exilic and Post-Exilic she progressively took on a less significant role in Yahwistic thought (to the point where, today, she has nothing to do with contemporary Christian or Jewish thought). However, again, this is fairly speculative and based upon analogy from sources external to ancient Israelite literature.

Clivedurdle · 07-19-2004, 07:51 AM

Quote:

My suspicion is that she was YHWH's consort in earlier expressions of Israelite worship but with the later monotheistic trends of the Exilic and Post-Exilic she progressively took on a less significant role in Yahwistic thought (to the point where, today, she has nothing to do with contemporary Christian or Jewish thought)

I'm sorry, nothing to do with contemporary xian thought?

The consort of Yahweh has a baby called Jesus who later on in the nineteenth century is called the Queen of Heaven and becomes married to God?

This is very heavy myth making and as such probably is hitting archetypes all over the place!

This is one of the key differences between Catholicism and Protestantism - Protestantism is a very interesting all male religion - hmm - men loving each other!

07-15-2004, 09:58 PM	#1
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Queen of heaven Jeremiah 7:18 (NIV) The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger. Who was the Queen of heaven?

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07-15-2004, 10:30 PM	#2
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	The two goddesses of the period known with some relation were Astarte and Ishtar. Astarte was also the main goddess to have carried the title "Queen of Heaven" in extant texts (Anat and Ishtar also bearing the title occasionally). Presumably, they were worshipping either of these (or a combination of them)--see Jeremiah 44:15-28. Less likely is a connection with Anat. If we equate the Queen of Heaven with one of the two, we might be able to say more, but otherwise, from internal evidence alone, she appears to be a cosmic protection deity, whose continued veneration was required to maintain her protection (note the Judahites worshipping her from Egypt), and whose favour could be regained. Most likely, the cult was family based, and female. Joel

07-16-2004, 07:26 AM	#4
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	Books I recommend on the subject of Hebrew/Canaanitie goddesses: When God Was A Woman, by Stone The Hebrew Goddess, by Patai

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