Chris Weimer

Could deque be short for "susque deque"?

Roger Pearse

... our behaviour, "up and down" in love...? Ahem.

Perhaps it means de-que: "and out of"?

This is not ancient Latin, but a modern translation by an American. I notice he uses 'eorum' as 'their' all over the place.

Thus:

Solliciti ergo simus de moribus deque amore erga invicem;

Let us be solicitous, therefore, in [our] behaviour and in love towards each other;

I think this must be right.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

I have now scanned a photocopy of Simon Joseph Carr's 1897 dissertation containing the Syriac text and Latin translation of Thomas of Edessa (6th century Nestorian writer) on Christmas. I've OCR'd the Latin as well and made a PDF of the images and the Latin text. It's here, and free so help yourselves and copy it as much as possible! It's around 1.6Mb in size:

http://www.tertullian.org/articles/thomas_of_edessa.pdf

The work is interesting as showing (cc. 10-11) that pagans were still celebrating 25 December every year as a solar festival associated with the solstice in the first quarter of the 6th century, presumably in Syria.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ben C Smith

You have to be right; que is enclitic. Compare, for example, Tacitus, Annals 13.28:

...medio temporis contra dicere liceret, deque eo consules statuerent.

...in the meantime one was allowed to speak out against it, and the consuls would render judgment on it.

Good job on this entire project, Roger.

Ben.

Roger Pearse

Many thanks for the kind words. The quotation was interesting -- I had not realised that you could add -que to a preposition, and had put it down to the modern translator. Evidently Mr. Carr knew his Latin.

I've submitted the complete Latin to The Latin Library and IntraText, with the idea of making it widely available. I wish I could do something about the Syriac.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse

Here's the start of the work:
---
THOMAE EDESSENI, TRACTATUS DE NATIVITATE DOMINI NOSTRI CHRISTI.�*
(LATINE REDDIDIT SIMON JOSEPH CARR MDCCCXCVIII)

Per virtutem Domini nostri Iesu Christi incipimus scribere volumen disputationum auctoribus Mar Thoma Edesseno, magistro religionis Dei, et Mar Kaiura laboris consorte.

Prima [disputatio], auctore Mar Thoma: de Nativitate carnali Domini nostri Christi.

Caput primum: Ad illum qui eum rogavit ut illam [disputationem] scripto mandaret.
Caput secundum: Quaenam sint eiusdem causae capita.
Caput tertium: Investigatio de causa propter quam hoc festum celebramus.
Caput quartum: Quaenam sint bona quae nobis data sunt per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum.
Caput quintum: Quam ob causam haec ipsa bona hucusque revelata non fuerint.
Caput sextum: Opus fuit mediatione alicuius per quem accipere possemus haec bona a Deo.
Caput septimum: Quas ob causas nil aliud hoc tempore sumpserit Deus pro sua revelatione, nisi hominem ex nobis.
Caput octavum : Quod Dominus noster Christus non fuit homo simplex (ψιλὸς ἄνθρ).
Caput nonum: Quam ob rem homo Domini nostri sumptus non fuerit e terra, sed ex virgine sine coitu viri.
Caput decimum: Quam ob causam ordinaverit Deus ut homo Domini nostri tempore verno conciperetur.
Caput undecimum: Exhortatio ad vitam honestam.

-----

THOMAS OF EDESSA, ON THE NATIVITY OF OUR LORD CHRIST

In the power (virtus) of our Lord Jesus Christ, we begin to write a volume of disputations by Mar Thomas of Edessa, master of the religion of God, and Mar Kaiura his helper in the work.

The first [disputation] by Mar Thomas: on the carnal Nativity of our Lord Christ.

1. To the one who asked him to order that the disputation should be written down.
2. Which are the headings of the reasons [causae]?
3. Investigation of the reason why we celebrate this feast.
4. What blessings are given to us through our Lord Jesus Christ?
5. For what reason were these blessings themselves not revealed until now?
6. The work was in mediation of something, through which we were able to receive these blessings from God.
7. For what reasons did God bring forth nothing else at this time for his revelation, except a man from among us?
8. That our Lord Christ was not simply a man.
9. For what reason was our human Lord not brought forth (sumere) from earth, but from a virgin without knowledge of man?
10. For what reason did God ordain that our human Lord should be conceived in the spring time?
11. Exhortation to an upright life.

Roger Pearse

CAPUT PRIMUM. Ad illum qui rogavit ut eam [disputationem] scripto mandaret.

Tuum quod unacum fratribus claris coenobii nostri mihi dedisti utile consilium, tuumque iucundum mandatum, O electe Dei, Mar Moyses Lector, diversas cogitationes in me excitarunt, et in varias considerationes me deiecerunt.

Mihi enim mandastis ut scriptis etiam traderem illam quippe causam Nativitatis gloriosae Domini et Salvatoris nostri Christi, quam dixi post Magistrum nostrum sanctum, Mar Aba Interpretem;

quod quidem tremo facere, ne.......; .......facile reputer ab iis qui cum causa et sine causa reprehendere amant;
item, mandato non obtemperare timeo, no praecepti violator consiliique transgressor a viris habear qui nihil dicunt nisi intuitu religionis Dei vivi.

Sed dum in his similibusque cogitationibus morabar, adiudicavi conveniens mihi esse, voluntati vestrae satisfacere, aliis quidem relinquens loqui prout velint, ne, dum timeo verba invida quae nullam apud Deum faciunt iniuriam, vobis per voluntatem bonam atque vitam perfectam Christo placentibus, murmurandi in me causam praeberem, eo quod mandato vestro non obtemperaverim.

Rogans itaque auxilium precum vestrarum Christo acceptabilium, ecce incumbo ad voluntatem vestram explendam.

Hoc prae omnibus peto a vobis, et ab illis qui quocumque modo in haec scripta inciderint, ne ullo modo de me falso opinemini, quod nempe accesserim dicere aut scribere, sperans me infirmum posse in hoc tractatu omnia quae sunt magistri nostri sic tradere prout ipse ea dixit.

Imo hanc solam fiduciam habeo in meis sermonibus ---- et hoc ab intima procedit persuasione ---- quod omnia mea ita relate ad magistri nostri dicta se habent, ut quis ab his ad illa ducatur tanquam ab imagine ad prototypum suum, et tanquam ab umbra ad corpus quo iacta est.

Quemadmodum insuper in loco quo sese extendunt radii solis, lucerna parva non est apta ad lucem dandam, sic etiam haec mea deperibunt, cum illa magistri nostri manifestant suarum cogitationum splendores.

Faciam igitur divisionem in capita quibus tota disputatio ad maiorem utilitatem disponitur; et deinde incipiam illa dicere quae postulat ordo singularum rerum in ipsa disputatione.

Sciunt enim sapientia et intellectus vestrum, quod illos, qui ambulaturi sunt per viam quotcumque milliarium quam probe non noscunt, multum adiuvat accipere signa et indicia quae sunt in via, et post hoc ambulare incipient;
sic eis evenit, si animum attentum teneant, facile a signo ad signum et ab indicio ad indicium usque ad finem viae sine errore ambulare.

Quod si hoc ita est, manifestum est multo magis esse necessarium iis qui orationem quamdam quotcumque sententiarum memoriae tradere cupiunt quod prius discant quaenam sint ipsius tractatus singula capita.

Quod si ita fiat, quando cogentur dicere orationem, quanquam scriptum praesto non sit, unde totam orationem in memoriam revocent, attamen eo quod praevie didicerunt numerum et titulum omnium capitum, poterunt facile orationem habere, etiamsi omittant nonnihil ex eis quae in medio capitum sunt.

Roger Pearse

Feel free to contribute, everyone.

O chosen of God, Mar Moses, Lector; you have given useful advice to me, ..., and your agreeable command, they have stirred up diverse cogitations in me, and led me into various considerations.

I'm rather stuck with the bit in bold! -- anyone? I hate it when they start with an accusative.

Because, if this is so, it is manifest that it is much more necessary for those who want this oration to place so many of the ideas in their memory to first learn why there are separate chapters in this treatise.

So if this happens, when they are gathered to discuss the oration, even if the written version is not ready to hand, from whence they could recall the whole oration to memory, nevertheless since they previously learned the number and title of every chapter, they will be able to consider the oration easily, even if they omit something of those bits which are in the middle of the chapters.