andrewcriddle

No I'm suggesting that the word was probably reasonably widespread in ordinary speech but not usually found in literary works.
I personally accept the traditional date of Paul, I was continuing with the question as to whether a much earlier date of Paul is possible and claiming that a very early date is incompatible with Paul using Wisdom of Solomon.
Looking at it again I'm not sure how strong the links are but for example Hebrews 12:1-2 may be influenced by 4 Maccabees 17:9-10 and similar passages.

Andrew Criddle

spin

Liddell and Scott indicate that the word was used by Epicurus some centuries before Wisdom.

If I understand correctly, this line of reasoning rests on the possibility that a word Qeioths was specifically borrowed by Paul from Wisdom -- afQarsia may also have been borrowed, but there is little reason to consider it: neither seem to provide any context in their placing in Wisdom which relate to Paul's thought; it is merely that the particular word is used, though I'd want something a little more convincing. It is extremely tenuous, isn't it? Why would wisdom have been the source and not that they both got it from the same sort of place that the Wisdom writer got it. Paul could easily be getting his ideas of wisdom from other sources. 1 Cor 12:8's references to spirit/wisdom/understanding seem to come from Isaiah. (A worst case scenario would be that Wisdom got it from Paul! I think they are likely to have been independent.)


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andrewcriddle

I agree that the purely linguistic parallels between Paul and Wisdom are too weak to support dependency on their own.

What I meant (and I'm sorry I was too brief to be clear) is that there are quite strong parallels between for example the claims in Wisdom about the connection of idolatry and moral corruption and Romans 1:19-32.

These parallels indicate IMO that Paul had read Wisdom. Hence if we need a source for this Pauline vocabulary there is no need to bring in Philo for words also in Wisdom because we (on other grounds) think Paul knew Wisdom and it is much more doubtful whether he knew Philo.

Andrew Criddle

spin

Are these parallels in any way linguistic in nature or are simply we dealing with similarity of ideas?


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Pilate

What did the writer of Hebrews take from 4 Maccabees?
And are you implying that Paul wrote the lettter to Hebrews?

Chris Weimer

And if I recall, 4th Maccabbees is usually dated as late as the 2nd century CE. Eusebius believes Josephus wrote it, but I wander if Peter Kirby has enough time to do a comparative analysis stastically on that.

andrewcriddle

IIIUC the similarities of passages in Paul such as Romans 1: 17-32 to passages in Wisdom of Solomon are more a matter of similar ideas than a matter of shared distinctive vocabulary.

(And no of course I don't think that Paul wrote Hebrews, I just mentioned in passing the possible link between Hebrews and 4 Maccabees.)

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

One piece of evidence for pre-Marcionite use of Paul is the claim by Origen that Basilides (who is almost certainly earlier than Marcion) used Romans to support reincarnation.

Origen Commentary on Romans Andrew Criddle

spin

I think, summing up so far, that we haven't come very far in the stated task of dating Paul from scratch.

We have these proposed indicators:

1) the conjecture that the Aretas mentioned by Paul in 2 Cor 11:32 was Aretas IV and not the only known possessor of Damascus, Aretas III 100 years earlier.

2) the suggestion that the mention of the house of Caesar (taken to be part of Paul's original work in a troubled text which gives the impression of being an edition of various efforts) in Phil 4:21, dates Paul in the 1st c. CE so that the Aretas in #1 must be the Fourth.

3) Paul may show knowledge of the Wisdom of Solomon, a work that may be aware of Augustus and Anthony, if so Paul is from after the writing of Wisdom.


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Johnny Skeptic

Are not the dates of composition and the dates of release entirely different matters?