Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pagandawn · 01-12-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hello ladies and gents, supporters and crits, my name is sugarhitman (a fusion of two names of two of my favorate boxers Tommy the Hitman Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard). There are many who have attacked the prophecies of the Bible such as those by Daniel, those about Tyre and others. From my recent debates and experiences with these people it is clear by their lackluster criticisms and attacks that they are not disproving prophecy but rejecting them ( a big difference by the way).

I have another which will prove most difficult to even reject....The prophecies concerning Israel which were written even in the days of Moses. Moses told the Jews should they ever disobey the voice of God that He would "scatter you among the people, from one end of the earth even to the other; and there you will serve other gods, which you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations you shall find no ease, neither shall the sole of your feet have rest: but the Lord shall give you there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind." Deut.28:64-65. "But this thing I commanded them saying, obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the councils and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward...For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight...Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth,and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." Jeremiah 7 "And you have done worse than your fathers; for behold, everyone of you walks after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not listen to Me. Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that you do not know.

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration, persecutions, genocidal attempts by gentiles Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the nations of Europe. But guess what the Jews have survived it all, why? because God made these promises:

Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars
for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of Hosts is His name):

"If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

Thus says the Lord:

"If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth
searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord

Ofcourse these things cant be done.... and neither can Israel be destroyed. "For behold, the days are coming says the Lord, that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah', says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall posses it." Jeremiah 30. "Therefore behold the days are coming says the Lord, that they shall no longer say 'As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt', but 'As the Lord lives who brought up and lead the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I have driven them.' And they shall dwell in their own land.

Yes the existance of the nation of Israel amidst a sea of blood thirsty anti- Israeli Gentile nations proves that God exists. Even now all nations seeks to uproot the Jews from that little land they hold to give it to the Arabs who seek nothing but their total demise....They will not susceed.:wave:

So you are spewing this hateful diatribe to us Gentiles?

We atheists or pagans don't buy it. It is pure BS. The xtians on the other hand they would probably buy it. Very sad.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Israel will eventually get all the land.

But in your opening post you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration.......

How can something eventually be restored that has already been restored, which has actually not been restored according to God's promise to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the ancient land of Canaan? You are joking, right?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 08:17 AM

Messge to sugarhitman: May I ask why you typically spend much more of your time proselytizing and quoting Scripture than you do directly replying to what skeptics say. This is the Internet Infidels Discussion Board. However, you seldom DISCUSS anything. You typically not talk WITH skeptics. You talk AT them. When people get together, they generally do not like to be with a person who likes to be heard, but who does not like to listen to what other people have to say. You are a rude and disrespectful person. You need an attitude adjustment. God has killed more people with parasites alone than all of wars in history, and you have the audacity to say that Christians have mistreated Jews.

If God's protection of the Jews has been conditional upon good behavior, what about Jewish babies who would have unfairly suffered many times during Jewish history because of the disobedience of their parents? That proves that God is evil. Another Scripture that proves that God is evil is Exodus 20:5, which says that God punished people for sins that their ancestor committed. Exodus 4:11 says that God makes people blind, deaf, and dumb. God refuses to protect women from rapists. God sent Hurricane Katrina to New Orleans. There is not doubt whatsoever that the God of the Bible is the most dangerous being in the world. He even empowered a vicious Devil to help him terrorize mankind. No loving, rational God would indiscriminately kill people and innocent animals with hurricanes. Indiscriminately killing is good evidence of evil, amorality, or mental incompetence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics like to tell us that Israel was setup to prove Bible prophecy by Britain and other Christains allies. What a stupid argument. The fact is yes Britian and other countries drew Plans for a restored Israel.......

That is correct, a planned restoration that DID NOT happen. God promised Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan. Today, the Jews do not occupy ALL of the land of ancient Canaan, and there is not any credible evidence that they ever did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

.......after they would not allow the Jews safe refuge sending them back to Germany to be slaughtered (many countries turned those ships filled with fleeing Jews including America back to Germany...so much for so-called Christains' friendship with the Jews).

But how some Christians treated the Jews does not have anything whatsoever to do with the failed restoration of Israel.

You believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior. You also believe that Pharoah enslaved the Jews. You also criticized Pharoah for mistreating the Jews. Why did you choose to embarrass yourself by saying that? If Pharoah mistrated the Jews, it was obviously THEIR fault for not obeying God. Otherwise, God would have allowed Pharoah to enslave the Jews. Isn't that right?

You have another blunder to deal with. You believe that God's protection of Jews has been dependent upon good behavior. you criticized Pharoah for mistreating the Jews. You embarrassed yourself since you believe that God's protection of the Jews was conditional upon good behavior. If the Jews had acted right, God would not have allowed Pharoah to enslave them. If Pharoah enslaved them, it was their own fault. Not only that, but what about Jewish babies who would have unfairly suffered many times during Jewish history because of the disobedience of their parents?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

How would these countries have looked if they would deny the Jews their right to land sending them back to those countries where they were oppressed, after they established the U.N. that disguised itself as an peaceful organization? They are not that stupid.

But that does not have anything to do with the FAILED restoration of Israel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The Jews did indeed fight with both the Brits and the Arabs for that land read a book. Every since Israel proclaimed statehood all nations have been trying to diminish their territory, all ( well most of them) nations have vehemently condemned them especially Britain.

And with good reason. It is wrong to steal people's land. No one has stolen more land than Christians have stolen. The largest colonial empire in history by far under a single religion was conquered by Christian nations by means of persecution, murder, and theft of property.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

This argument that these countries set up Israel to support prophecy, is not only stupid but false. How can you support something and hate it too?

Consider the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour...he_declaration

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Foreign Office,
November 2nd, 1917.

Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet:
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country".

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely
Arthur James Balfour

First of all, regarding "the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations......." that does not agree with the following that you said: "How can you support something and hate it too?" Lord Balfour certainly did not hate the Jews. On the contrary, he said "the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations......."

At any rate, what evidence do you have that God had anything to do with the failed restoration of Israel in 1948?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Will you tell me that the wars over this land, and the condemnation of Israel by the world are all done to support the Bible?

Regarding conservative Christians, the correct answer is certainly "yes." Regarding non-Christians who supported the failed partition of Palestine, the correct answer is "no, many non-Christians supported the partition of Palestine because the Jews had been persecuted by lots of people, not because they were Jews, which proves that it was human sympathy that accounted for the partition of Palestine, not God.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

At the same time the Bible is being attacked by these same Global Government pushers in their home countries?

You are joking, right? Jay Leno is looking for material like that. You have missed your calling as a comedian. If you are serious, my former supposition that you could not actually be as ingorant as you appear to be was obviously mistaken. Many non-Christian supported the partition of Palestine because the Jews had been persecuted by lots of people, not because they were Jews, which proves that it was human sympathy that accounted for the partition of Palestine, not God.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 08:25 AM

Message to sugarhitman: Since God told a lie when he promised to give Egypt to Nebuchadzzar, why do you support the Bible?

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 09:30 AM

Message to sugarhitman: Your apparent interest in evidence is obviously a masquerade. If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would reject the very same quality of evidence that you accept now. I would not accept the Bible even if it said that God will send everyone to heaven, although I would hope that he would. I would oppose the Bible for the same reasons that I oppose it now. Some of my reasons are as follows:

1 - The Gospel writers were anonymous.

2 - The Gospel writers almost never revealed who their sources were.

3 - The Gospel writers almost never claimed that they witnessed miracles.

4 - The Gospel writers almost never revealed who their sources were.

5 - Matthew and Luke borrowed a good deal from John.

6 - It impossible to be reasonably certain how many people saw Jesus after he supposedly rose from the dead.

7 - Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons for anyone to assume that it was any different back then.

8 - I would still question why God injures and kills people and innocent animals with hurricanes. Unlike you, it is not my position that doing some good things justifies injuring and killing people and innocent animals, or setting up circumstances that cause people and innocent animals to be killed.

9 - I would still question God's desire to send skeptics to hell for eternity without parole.

10 - As much as I would like to rubber stamp everything that God does in order to go to heaven, my morals are not up for negotiation, and I am not able to do anything about that. The only possible solution for me would be if God explained to my satisfaction why he does what he does. It is my position that a loving God, a God who I would admire and accept, would provide me with explanations for his behavior before I made up my mind whether to accept him or reject him, especially if spending eternity in heaven and hell were at stake.

So there you have it. While my beliefs would be consistent no matter what the Bible promised, you will only accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you. You have replaced logic and reason with emotional perceived self-interests.

Toto · 01-12-2008, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Israel will eventually get all the land. The remnant of Israel are those Jews who will accept the True Messiah Jesus Christ, the true children of the promise. Israel will go through one last disaster during the time of the False Messiah....The Anti-Christ. Many Jews will awake during this time, and realize that Jesus was indeed the True Messiah...Revelations says 144,000 Jewish witnesses of Jesus will arise during this time. When the Anti-Christ (the Beast) gloves come off many Jews will realize that they (and the world) has made a BIG mistake about rejecting the True Messiah....Jesus of Nazereth. :wave:

Sorry, this is not an appropriate post for this forum. Low grade threats of hellfire and damnation and the Beast is gonna get you belong in either ~Elsewhere~ or humor. If your moderators have to read another like this, prepare for a change in orbit. :devil:

Sheshonq · 01-12-2008, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Critics like to tell us that Israel was setup to prove bible prophecy by Britain and other Christains allies. What a stupid arguement. The fact is yes Britian and other countries drew Plans for a restored Israel after they would not allow the Jews safe refuge blah blah blah

You know even less about world history and political affairs than you do about the bible. That is not how it happened.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-12-2008, 11:39 AM

Message to sugarhitman: Your anger, resentment, and hostility shows that you are not a Christian. The second greatest commandment is that people should love their fellow humans as they love themselves. 1st Corinthians 13 says that love is patient and kind, and keeps no record of wrongs. Jesus told his followers to do good to those who mistreated them.

No skeptic ever becomes a Christian based upon threats. That is one reason why Pascal's Wager is fraudulent. Jesus told the disciples to spread the Gospel. The word "Gospel" means "good news." You have not offered any good news, only threats. You have made a mockery out of the Gospel message. If the God of the Bible exists, you have put your salvation at risk with your hateful, vicious behavior.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Revelation 2:2-5

"I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

Have you lost your first love, or did you ever have it?

Are you not aware that many skeptics are loving, kind, wonderful, forgiving people? Many skeptics keep some of the Ten Commandments better than some Christians do. Some skeptic police officers would be willing to risk their lives in order to save your life. Many skeptics join the Corps, and do volunteer work, including working for free in soup kitchens.

How you do expect people who have never heard of the God of the Bible to accept him? Millions of people died without hearing the Gospel message. Why was that? During Old Testament times, the vast majority of people in the world had not knowledge of the specific existence of the God of the Bible. Why was that?

You need an attitude adjustment. If you do not get one, I predict that your threads will be transferred to another forum, or that you will be banned.

This forum is for discussions. You seldom discuss anything. You usually preach at people and threaten them, and typically do not reply to what people say. Why is that?

sugarhitman · 01-13-2008, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Hello ladies and gents, supporters and crits, my name is sugarhitman (a fusion of two names of two of my favorate boxers Tommy the Hitman Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard). There are many who have attacked the prophecies of the Bible such as those by Daniel, those about Tyre and others. From my recent debates and experiences with these people it is clear by their lackluster criticisms and attacks that they are not disproving prophecy but rejecting them ( a big difference by the way).

I have another which will prove most difficult to even reject....The prophecies concerning Israel which were written even in the days of Moses. Moses told the Jews should they ever disobey the voice of God that He would "scatter you among the people, from one end of the earth even to the other; and there you will serve other gods, which you nor your fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations you shall find no ease, neither shall the sole of your feet have rest: but the Lord shall give you there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind." Deut.28:64-65. "But this thing I commanded them saying, obey My voice and I will be your God, and you shall be My people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you. But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the councils and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward...For the children of Judah have done evil in My sight...Then will I cause to cease from the cities of Judah, and from the streets of Jerusalem, the voice of mirth,and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride: for the land shall be desolate." Jeremiah 7 "And you have done worse than your fathers; for behold, everyone of you walks after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not listen to Me. Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that you do not know.

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration, persecutions, genocidal attempts by gentiles Egypt, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and the nations of Europe. But guess what the Jews have survived it all, why? because God made these promises:

Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars
for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of Hosts is His name):

"If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever."

Thus says the Lord:

"If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth
searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord

Ofcourse these things cant be done.... and neither can Israel be destroyed. "For behold, the days are coming says the Lord, that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah', says the Lord. 'And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave their fathers, and they shall posses it." Jeremiah 30. "Therefore behold the days are coming says the Lord, that they shall no longer say 'As the Lord lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt', but 'As the Lord lives who brought up and lead the descendants of the house of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where I have driven them.' And they shall dwell in their own land.

Yes the existance of the nation of Israel amidst a sea of blood thirsty anti- Israeli Gentile nations proves that God exists. Even now all nations seeks to uproot the Jews from that little land they hold to give it to the Arabs who seek nothing but their total demise....They will not susceed.:wave:

But what if they do succeed? Do you think a nuclear war could not destroy Israel? Not to mention the Palestinians and probably Egypt and Syria.

Jews have always lived in the world. Their problems arise from the Christian interpretation of the bible story, imo.

Christians such as Hagee keep the turmoil for Israel going in their "prophecies" of doom and gloom.

You do realize that Hagee and many other Christian preachers are waiting for Jesus to kill all the Jews in Israel, don't you? Else why their preaching "that no one comes to the father but by me"? And all who don't accept Jesus as Lord and God will be exterminated when Jesus returns to Mt.Zion.

I've always been amazed that Israel allows Hagee and the others like him into their country. But I suppose they don't believe what these preachers say and their intended take-over of ALL Israel.

If you read carefully you would have learned that Hagee does not believe in preaching the Gospel to the Jews. Because he incorrectly believe they dont need it.

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01-12-2008, 08:25 AM	#135
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: Since God told a lie when he promised to give Egypt to Nebuchadzzar, why do you support the Bible?

01-12-2008, 09:30 AM	#136
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: Your apparent interest in evidence is obviously a masquerade. If the Bible said that God will send everyone to hell, you would reject the very same quality of evidence that you accept now. I would not accept the Bible even if it said that God will send everyone to heaven, although I would hope that he would. I would oppose the Bible for the same reasons that I oppose it now. Some of my reasons are as follows: 1 - The Gospel writers were anonymous. 2 - The Gospel writers almost never revealed who their sources were. 3 - The Gospel writers almost never claimed that they witnessed miracles. 4 - The Gospel writers almost never revealed who their sources were. 5 - Matthew and Luke borrowed a good deal from John. 6 - It impossible to be reasonably certain how many people saw Jesus after he supposedly rose from the dead. 7 - Today, millions of Christians disagree as to what constitutes a miracle healing. There are not any good reasons for anyone to assume that it was any different back then. 8 - I would still question why God injures and kills people and innocent animals with hurricanes. Unlike you, it is not my position that doing some good things justifies injuring and killing people and innocent animals, or setting up circumstances that cause people and innocent animals to be killed. 9 - I would still question God's desire to send skeptics to hell for eternity without parole. 10 - As much as I would like to rubber stamp everything that God does in order to go to heaven, my morals are not up for negotiation, and I am not able to do anything about that. The only possible solution for me would be if God explained to my satisfaction why he does what he does. It is my position that a loving God, a God who I would admire and accept, would provide me with explanations for his behavior before I made up my mind whether to accept him or reject him, especially if spending eternity in heaven and hell were at stake. So there you have it. While my beliefs would be consistent no matter what the Bible promised, you will only accept promises that you believe will ultimately benefit you. You have replaced logic and reason with emotional perceived self-interests.

01-12-2008, 11:39 AM	#139
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to sugarhitman: Your anger, resentment, and hostility shows that you are not a Christian. The second greatest commandment is that people should love their fellow humans as they love themselves. 1st Corinthians 13 says that love is patient and kind, and keeps no record of wrongs. Jesus told his followers to do good to those who mistreated them. No skeptic ever becomes a Christian based upon threats. That is one reason why Pascal's Wager is fraudulent. Jesus told the disciples to spread the Gospel. The word "Gospel" means "good news." You have not offered any good news, only threats. You have made a mockery out of the Gospel message. If the God of the Bible exists, you have put your salvation at risk with your hateful, vicious behavior. Consider the following Scriptures: Revelation 2:2-5 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent." Have you lost your first love, or did you ever have it? Are you not aware that many skeptics are loving, kind, wonderful, forgiving people? Many skeptics keep some of the Ten Commandments better than some Christians do. Some skeptic police officers would be willing to risk their lives in order to save your life. Many skeptics join the Corps, and do volunteer work, including working for free in soup kitchens. How you do expect people who have never heard of the God of the Bible to accept him? Millions of people died without hearing the Gospel message. Why was that? During Old Testament times, the vast majority of people in the world had not knowledge of the specific existence of the God of the Bible. Why was that? You need an attitude adjustment. If you do not get one, I predict that your threads will be transferred to another forum, or that you will be banned. This forum is for discussions. You seldom discuss anything. You usually preach at people and threaten them, and typically do not reply to what people say. Why is that?

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