Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 12-26-2012, 06:53 PM

IF they are honest.
'IF this' or IF that', 'IF He will' and 'IF you will'. On the right hand and on the left hand. Only the foolish or dishonest think there is no reason to consider alternatives.

sotto voce · 12-26-2012, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

If they are honest.

mountainman · 12-26-2012, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

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Originally Posted by sotto voce

....

Now what does Logos do, in the context of the Bible? It compels intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, as saviour.

No it doesn't.

The simple fact is that it does. `

The mode of persuasion in the new testament is pathos not logos.

The Emperor Julian concurs on this ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Though it has in it nothing divine,
by making full use of that part of the soul
which loves fable and is childish and foolish,
it has induced men to believe
that the monstrous tale is truth.

The monstrous tale appeals to the audience's sense of (childish) emotions.

In theology college you then learn to pick up and read Eusebius's "Martyrs of Palestine" - full on pathos for early christians.

The whole thing is a pathetic racket.

sotto voce · 12-27-2012, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

....

Now what does Logos do, in the context of the Bible? It compels intellectual acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, as saviour.

No it doesn't.

The simple fact is that it does. `

The mode of persuasion in the new testament is pathos not logos.

The Emperor Julian concurs on this ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Though it has in it nothing divine,
by making full use of that part of the soul
which loves fable and is childish and foolish,
it has induced men to believe
that the monstrous tale is truth.

The monstrous tale appeals to the audience's sense of (childish) emotions.

In theology college you then learn to pick up and read Eusebius's "Martyrs of Palestine" - full on pathos for early christians.

The whole thing is a pathetic racket.

And yet, you're here.

semiopen · 12-27-2012, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

"For as the New Heavens and the New Earth Which I will make shall remain before Me, says יהוה
So shall your descendants and your name remain".

And it shall come to pass from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says יהוה

I have a theory that Shabbat used to mean the full moon as both Shabbat and New Moon are generally written together in the prophets.

Just curious if there is any academic support for this or vice versa.

sotto voce · 12-27-2012, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

"For as the New Heavens and the New Earth Which I will make shall remain before Me, says יהוה
So shall your descendants and your name remain".

And it shall come to pass from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says יהוה

I have a theory that Shabbat used to mean the full moon as both Shabbat and New Moon are generally written together in the prophets.

No, you don't.

semiopen · 12-27-2012, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I have a theory that Shabbat used to mean the full moon as both Shabbat and New Moon are generally written together in the prophets.

No, you don't.

You're probably right as usual.

If one googles shabbat full moon one gets a lot of hits but weirdo alarms start going off and since I'm definitely not a weirdo...

The New Moon and the Weekly Sabbath -- Side-By-Side!

From the Hope of Israel Ministries (Ecclesia of YEHOVAH):

Quote:

Throughout the Bible we find mention of the weekly Sabbath side-by-side with new moon observance. Is this coincidental, or an indication that these two days are meant to be observed together, and that one is dependent upon the other for determining its place in time?

It appears that there is a concept of Lunar Shabbat, where the Shabbat occurs on the same day as the most recent New Moon. This concept seems to consider Shabbat (rest) as related to Sheva (seven).

Sumerian Sabbath

This is more or less what I was referring to -

Quote:

This article argues that Israel's New Moons as well as Passover on the eve of the Full Moon may have been derived originally from ancient Mesopotamian Lunar Festivals.

Furthermore, the controversy which exists among some scholars seeking a relationship between the weekly Hebrew Shabbat (English Sabbath) and Mesopotamian Full Moon Shapattu on the 15th day of the lunar month is explored.

Quote:

In 1904, Doctor Pinches discovered in a tablet giving the designation of the days of the month, that the 15th day was called shapatti when it became clear that the word shabatu, explained by gamaru, meaning "to be complete, full," apparently referred to the full moon in the middle of the month.

The author goes on to question this... I'm also not convinced that this site is kosher.

sotto voce · 12-27-2012, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I have a theory that Shabbat used to mean the full moon as both Shabbat and New Moon are generally written together in the prophets.

No, you don't.

You're probably right as usual.

Wisdom!

Quote:

If one googles

Aaaargh!

You were doing so well.

Sheshbazzar · 12-27-2012, 07:34 AM

The New Moon and the Weekly Sabbath -- Side-By-Side!

Sumerian Sabbath

How to say far more with much less words;
ברב דברים לא יחדל־חטא כי בא החלום ברב ענין וקול כסיל ברב דברים׃
שכל טוב לכל־עשיהם המועדיו׃

semiopen · 12-27-2012, 08:41 AM

This seems to be a conspiracy to get my head to explode but

Babylonian And Assyrian Religion (or via: amazon.co.uk) goes

(Reprinted from the original in 1923)

Quote:

One other seasonal element of the cult may be mentioned, namely, that connected with the phases of the moon. The Babylonian religious calendar, while determined in part by the agricultural seasons, was originally a lunar calendar, like all early calendars, and the phases of the moon were carefully observed and were the subject of many omens. The two most important points of the moon's course, from the religious point of view, were the full moon (shabattum), and the day of the moon's total disappearance (bubbulum); the latter was regarded as a specially dangerous period, and was marked by fasting, prayers, and other rites. The new moon also was watched for, and its appearance, marking the beginning of the month, was an occasion for ritual. It is possible that the early Hebrew "new moons" and "sabbaths" ( Isa. 1: 13-4) were lunar festivals, marking new moon and full moon, and may go back to the common origin in ancient custom of both Babylonian and Canaanite lunar feasts.

Maybe I'm too easily convinced but my guess is that the seven day week was taken up after the exile, coinciding with the writing of Genesis 1.

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12-26-2012, 06:53 PM	#21
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	IF they are honest. 'IF this' or IF that', 'IF He will' and 'IF you will'. On the right hand and on the left hand. Only the foolish or dishonest think there is no reason to consider alternatives.

12-27-2012, 07:34 AM	#29
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The New Moon and the Weekly Sabbath -- Side-By-Side! Sumerian Sabbath How to say far more with much less words; ברב דברים לא יחדל־חטא כי בא החלום ברב ענין וקול כסיל ברב דברים׃ שכל טוב לכל־עשיהם המועדיו׃

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