Phlox Pyros

I'm not sure I've ever actually seen an in-depth analysis of this issue. Who spoke "The Golden Rule" first, Hillel or Jesus (setting aside, at least initially, the idea that neither of them did)?

Bavli (Babylonian) Talmud - Shabbat (Sabbath) 31a {in Hebrew}

He {ie. a Gentile} thereupon came to Hillel, and the latter accepted him. He told him: "What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellow; this is the whole law. All the rest is a commentary to this law; go and learn it."

Matthew 7:12

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6:31

Do to others as you would have them do to you.

"The Golden Rule", as expressed by Hillel, is contained in the Gemara (oral tradition written down ~500 A.D.), as oppposed to the Mishna (oral tradition written down ~200 A.D.). Earliest manuscripts containing this passage date to ??? (anyone know?). Oral tradition supposedly dates all the way back to the time of Hillel, but how do we know?

"The Golden Rule" as expressed by Jesus is reported in the Gospel of Matthew (oral tradition written down between ~80-130 A.D.) and Luke (tradition written down ~65-80 A.D.) but curiously not in the Gospel of Mark (tradition written down ~90-120 A.D.) or John. Neither is it found in the Gospel of Thomas (dated to ~50-140 A.D.). {all Gospel datings via Peter Kirby's Early Christian Writings} Earliest manuscripts containing this passage date to ??? (anyone care to look it up?). Oral tradition supposedly dates all the way back to Jesus, but how do we know?

J842P

"One should seek for others the happiness one desires for himself"
Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama, c. 563 - c. 483 B.C.)

Notice this is positive rather than negative. Not you don't just NOT DO what makes others unhappy, but seek happiness for others.

Phlox Pyros

Thanks. This was interesting. What is the source?

Matthew and Luke also have positive versions, however, and the question is about Hillel and Jesus, the Bavli Talmud and the Gospels.

J842P

Yes, my bad. I just wanted to point out that technically, neither spoke the "Golden Rule" first. It has come from almost every belief system out there.
http://www.virtuescience.com/golden-rule.html

I used Buddha's example because I remeber talking about the Golden Rule in my comparative religion class, in which we discussed how this seemed to be a connecting feature of all the religions.

Also, I do not know enough about Bavali Talmud nor the Gospels.
Question, what is the difference between the Bavali Talmud? Was it written down during the Babylonian Captivity? Is there any difference between it and "The Talmud?"

Phlox Pyros

It is "The Talmud", so to speak. Well, actually, there are two Talmuds: Yerushalmi (i.e. Jerusalem, a.k.a. Palestinian) Talmud and the Bavli (i.e. Babylonian) Talmud. I believe they are named either after where they were written or from where their traditions were derived. I believe that The Babylonian Talmud is considered more authoritative by most Jews today than the Palestinian Talmud. As far as content, I believe they are almost identical, but someone else would have to speak to that.

Phlox Pyros

The following difference between Hillel and Jesus seems interesting. Is there any significance?

Hillel
...this is the whole law. All the rest is a commentary to this law.

Jesus
...this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Did Hillel leave out "the Prophets", or the Neviim on purpose or is it believed to be included in his "whole law" (if so, how do we know this?)?

Diogenes the Cynic

Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

--Leviticus 19:18

noble savage

The negative formulation of the Golden Rule, "And what you hate, do not do to anyone," is attested in the apocryphal book of Tobit at 4:15. Tobit is usually dated to the late third or early second centuries BCE--some time after the introduction of Hellenism under Alexander but before the Maccabean revolt. Copies or fragments of Tobit have been found at Qumran, but I don't know whether they contain this particular text or how they have been dated.

--Noble Savage

Phlox Pyros

This is obviously the origin of both Hillel and Jesus quotes, but which one spoke about the summation of the law first? Did both come up with their statements independently? Is one possibly a "reaction" to the other? Why/why not?

Lugubert

A nice collection of the Rule as found in several religions: http://www.euro-tongil.org/ws/theme015