OneInFundieville

I personally love STICK-IT-TO-THE-MAN theology.

Elijah

Elijah is being played by John the Baptist in the story of Jesus, so they say. Mosses’ and Elijah’s appearance are illustrating who Christ was spiritually and by spiritually I mean what work he was supposed to be doing.

I’ve always thought that Peter putting up the tents was trying to illustrate how real their appearance was, they weren’t appearing as dreams or visions. Peter being his usual silly self.

Elijah

Give to Caesar the things that are Caesar's… until he chokes and dies.

gstafleu

The first question is if there is a contradiction between Exodus 33:11 and 20. Maybe Moses spoke to the lord face-to-face without actually seeing him, or maybe just seeing him in some sort of disguise? However if there is a contradiction between the two we cannot conclude anything from it as ex falso sequitur quodlibet. So we cannot conclude an exceptional status for Moses either.

The same question goes for Elijah and heaven. According to John nobody goes to heaven (and that would include raptured-away fundies). To interpret 2 Kings 2 as referring to a different heaven than the one John is speaking of (or rather has Jesus speak of) seems difficult. So we probably have a contradiction here, which removes these passages from usefulness for any further reasoning.

Gerard Stafleu

OneInFundieville

I'm familiar with the three heavens notion to explain away the one point. United Airlines and NASA have been to two of them so I too think the different heaven argument is kinda silly.

jakejonesiv

We have the reunion of the three Old Testament saints who, according to the scriptures, experienced theophany atop the Holy mountain. (The Holy mountain is called "Horeb" according to E and "Sinai" according to J.)

The Transfiguration scene is a vision of Moses and Joshua(Jesus) atop the Mountain of God, (Exodus 24:15 ff), joined there by Elijah (1 Kings 19:8).

Notice that three tabernacles were suggested, one for each. This suggests a relic of a pre-Christian worship, before Jesus was singled out.

And what subsequently, according to the scriptures, happened to these worthies?

Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind, in the chariot of the sun god. 2 Kings 2:11, cf 2 Kings 23:11. He is claimed in the NT to have returned in the person of JBAP. Could Jesus, in some way, have been deemed the return of Joshua?

Moses died and God buried him, no one knows where. Deut 34:5-6. The Legends arose that due to modesty the Torah says he died a natural death, but instead he was taken alive into heaven. Sifre on Deut., sect. 357.5; Babylonian Talmud, Sotah 13b.

As Josephus wrote in Antiquities 4:8:48 "and as he (Moses) was going to embrace Eleazar and Joshua (i.e. Lazarus and Jesus), and was still discoursing with them, a cloud stood over him on the sudden, and he disappeared in a certain valley,
although he wrote in the holy books that he died, which was done out of fear, lest they should venture to say that, because of his extraordinary virtue, he went to God."

But what of young Joshua? He was said to ascend (Exodus 24:13) and descend the Holy Mount with Moses. In later legend he was thought to have shared the beatific vision with Moses and become divine. Moses face shown after one encounter on the
mountain, and this corresponds with Jesus in the Transfiguration. Indeed, Joshua (LXX=Iesous/Jesus) experienced the divine presence face to face in the Tabernacle even more than Moses. Exodus 33:11 cf Hebrews 13:1-2. What happened to him? He was filled with the Spirit of Wisdom (Deut 34:9) and completed the work that Moses could never complete.

Joshua the very one for whom even the sun stayed his course at his command (Joshua 10:12-13) on the day he ascended from Gigal (v. 7) and returned (v.15).

Joshua, the annointed, Joshua the Christ.
We see a trace here in Habakkuk 3:11-13.

11The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12Thou didst march through the land in indignation,
thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people,
even for salvation with thine anointed;

Jake Jones IV

According to Philo of Alexandria, Moses was deified when he ascended to Mount Sinai. It was deemed as an ascent into heaven.
De Somnii 1.36
De Posteritute Caini 28.31
De Confusione Linguarum 30-32
Quaestones et Solutioners in Exodum 2.29

Since Joshua alone was said to have accompanied him (Exodus 24:13-14 ), legend grew that Joshua shared in that deification, and the ascent and descent to heaven/Sinai. This presumed legend lies behind Ephesians 4:8-10. The Targum on the Psalms 68:18 reads: 'Thou ascendedst up to the firmament, O prophet Moses, thou tookest captives captive, thou didst teach the words of the Law, thou gavest them as gifts to the children of men'.

John Kesler

Moses and Elijah hold places of honor in both testaments. Malachi mentions both men with regard to the coming "day of Yahweh":

The expectation of Elijah's return is alluded to in the NT (Mt 16:14; 27:47,49; John 1:21,25), and Revelation's "two witnesses," who are killed and resurrected, are almost assuredly Elijah and Moses:

John Kesler

Arguing that Elijah didn't "really" go to the "real" heaven is a harmonization attempt, not an exegesis of the texts. Look at some passages which speak of Elijah:

If Elijah wasn't taken up to Yahweh's presence in heaven, where was he taken?

GakuseiDon

Some thought that the whirlwind took him to another kingdom (sounds a little like Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz), while others that he is kind of floating around still making appearances (my emphasis below):
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/vi...&search=Elijah

Three years after this vision (Seder 'Olam R. xvii.) Elijah was "translated." Concerning the place to which Elijah was transferred, opinions differ among Jews and Christians, but the old view was that Elijah was received among the heavenly inhabitants, where he records the deeds of men (Ḳid. 70; Ber. R. xxxiv. 8), a task which according to the apocalyptic literature is entrusted to Enoch. But as early as the middle of the second century, when the notion of translation to heaven was abused by Christian theologians, the assertion was made that Elijah never entered into heaven proper (Suk. 5a; compare also Ratner on Seder 'Olam R. xvii.); in later literature paradise is generally designated as the abode of Elijah (compare Pirḳe R. El. xvi.), but since the location of paradise is itself uncertain, the last two statements may be identical...

In mystic literature Elijah is an angel, whose life on earth is conceived of as a merely apparitional one, and who is identified with Sandalfon. The cabalists speak also of the struggle between Elijah and the Angel of Death, who asserts his right to all children of men, and who endeavored to prevent, Elijah from entering heaven (Zohar Ruth, beginning, ed. Warsaw, 1885, 76a). The taking of Elijah into heaven or supramundane regions did not mean his severance from this world; on the contrary, his real activity then began. From Biblical times there is his letter to Jehoram, written seven years after his translation (Seder 'Olam R. xvii.; compare, however, Josephus, "Ant." ix. 5, § 2), and his interference in favor of the Jews after Haman had planned their extinction (see Ḥarbona; Mordecai). But it is mainly in post-Biblical times that Elijah's interest in earthly events was most frequently manifested, and to such an extent that the Haggadah calls him "the bird of heaven" (Ps. viii. 9, Hebr.), because like a bird he flies through the world and appears where a sudden divine interference is necessary (Midr. Teh. ad loc.; see also Ber. 4b; Targ. on Eccles. x. 20). His appearing among men is so frequent that even the irrational animals feel it: the joyous barking of the dogs is nothing else than an indication that Elijah is in the neighborhood (B. Ḳ. 60b). To men he appears in different forms, sometimes while they are dreaming, sometimes while they are awake, and this in such a way that the pious frequently know who is before them. Thus he once appeared to a Roman officer in a dream and admonished him not to be lavish of his inherited riches (Gen. R. lxxxiii.).

John Kesler

That later conjecture about Elijah's whereabouts developed doesn't change the intent of 2 Kings' author, or the fact that his statement is in tension with John 3:13. Apparently you agree, since in an earlier post you say that, "I think...Moses and Elijah both ascended to heaven."